Your Potential and Why Women Value Loyalty

One of the best insights in the Red Pill is that men who keep themselves physically and professionally together, can in their early forties with a little Game, have a cherry picking of women in their mid-twenties. While women in their early forties… meh not so much. I touched on that topic with Young Guy Game vs Old Guy Game. I actually had a friend phone me up after I wrote that post saying I soft peddled it way too much and that “Old Athol” would simply bury “Young Athol” in a match for “Young Jennifer’s” charms.

So the question begged then, is why don’t far more older men, bag younger women. Historically there’s always been a 2-3 year age difference between brides and grooms that’s held steady even as the average age for marriage moves toward being older. Why is that age gap only 2-3 years instead of 12-13 years? Why don’t 27 year old women routinely marry 40 year old men?  Why do young women in their early twenties – at the very peak of their Sexual Marketplace buying power – settle for men in their mid-twenties?

The answer is simple…

The purchase the man not as he is, but as he shall be… potentially.

Or put more plainly, they’ll marry a med student because he’ll become a doctor, not because he’s a med student. They’ll marry a young business guy because he’ll become a captain of industry. They’ll marry a musician because he’ll become the rock star.

Your potential is a somewhat nebulous thing though. Shit happens. The economy tanks. People get laid off. We don’t all get to grow up to be astronauts.

In some cases, your marriage is tanking because she’s emotionally involved with another man… the mental image of the you that reached your potential. The fact that you did pretty good when all is said and done, may not appease her when she traded a smoking hot 22-year-old body for someone that turned into a fairly good 42-year-old man. It’s not that you’re a loser because you’re not… it’s that she feels she gambled and lost.

This is why you must pay special attention you’re entire marriage to the structural attraction issues. You can’t let your career slide away into nothingness when she has a mental image of you becoming someone more than you are. She did not trade a hot 24-year-old body to end up with a fat 39-year-old man.

Likewise, if you actually keep all your shit together and become what your potential suggest you can be… you will have the opportunities to just dump her and saddle up a new hottie as a replacement wife. Her gamble on you will never pay off as she hopes unless you are loyal to her. Thus when you act disloyal, or questionably loyal, her hamster kicks into overdrive, and she takes steps to ascertain your true loyalty to her. That’s why women will always sift through your unattended, unlocked phone.

Of course men aren’t terribly different either. The level of disgust men have in watching their trim perky bride morph into Jabba the Hutt’s sister is quite acute.

Comments

  1. Revo Luzione says:

    “That’s why women will always sift through your unattended, unlocked phone.”
    .
    That’s why you need to keep your phone & computer on DefCon5 OpSec lockdown, whether you’ve got a side piece or not. Keeps that hamster running like Lolo Jones. Curiousity is an effective hand-maintenance tool.

  2. Why don’t 27 year old women routinely marry 40 year old men? Why do young women in their early twenties – at the very peak of their Sexual Marketplace buying power – settle for men in their mid-twenties?

    The answer is simple…
    The purchase the man not as he is, but as he shall be… potentially.

    There is an even simpler answer: They marry a med student because they can’t get a doctor. They marry a young business guy because they can’t get a captain of industry. They marry a musician because they can’t get a rock star.

    That is to say, they marry for potential because they can’t actually get an accomplished yet still single mid-30 to 40 year old alpha. Not only is the accomplished alpha less likely to settle down, but he understands the market better (experience) and potentially has his pick of so many high quality younger women (if he decides to do so) that any but the highest caliber of women are unlikely to get, and more importantly keep him. The mechanics of the bell curve distribution mean that even at the very peak of their Sexual Marketplace buying power in their early twenties, while the vast majority of women may be attractive to the average man, in terms of real SMV/MMV they are still so far below the accomplished alpha that they rate only as high as a one-night stand or other short-term fling. And of course if they engage in one-night stands or short-term flings, that only disqualifies them further.

    Choosing potential over accomplishment is making a necessity into a virtue. Hamsterbation at its best.

  3. > Historically there’s always been a 2-3 year age difference between brides and grooms

    My impression of the 18th and 19th centuries is that in the middle to upper class it was in fact common for men in their 30s to marry a woman in her late teens or early twenties, precisely because at that point they could offer some measure of financial stability, etc. I’d love to see a citation on that 2-3 year age difference thing!

  4. “[W]hy don’t far more older men, bag younger women?”

    Because they’re not nearly as hot. We want hottieboombalotties too, ya know, although it is admittedly a smaller “big factor” for us then for guys. And, while marrying money is great, if we have our own future fiscal mapped, we can adjust our pickings accordingly and compromise less in the way of attractiveness in a mate versus his potential income, easing back on the latter a bit in favor of the former.

  5. “So the question begged then, is why don’t far more older men, bag younger women.”

    Mostly because women are jut not attracted to men much older than themselves.( Unless he has plenty of money and she is a gold digger.) It stands to reason, really.
    The age gap may not be that noticeable when they are younger, but a 10 or more year age gap is quite a difference say, if she is 45 and he is 55-65.

    For a start women usually live longer than men anyway, so, chances are the woman will be left alone for 10+ years. My maternal grandparents were 10 years apart in age. He died at age 80 and my grandmother lived for another twenty years..

    Then there is the physical aspect. Half of men over the age of 50 suffer from Erectile dysfunction. A woman who has always enjoyed a good sex life with her husband may find when she is 50 her husband of 60 may have problems in that area.
    For me, I have just never been attracted to men older than a few years than myself .My husband is two years older than me. We share similar interests. Grew up listening to the same kind of music. Are both fit and in good shape.
    It’s just not a good idea (for a woman)to marry a man too much older than herself.
    Apart from my grandparents, I know of only one other couple where the husband is much older than the wife. He is 68 and she is 53. She is still quite active, holding down a fulltime job. Whilst he has slowed down considerably and will be retiring soon. She wants to go out visiting. He would rather stay home.

    I want my husband to be around for a long long time yet. If there were a 15 year age gap like that couple I mentioned, I would more than likely be spending many many years alone, or perhaps eventually visiting my husband in an aged care home , when he becomes too frail for me to care for him at home.

  6. “[W]hy don’t far more older men, bag younger women?”

    Aside from the issue of sexual attraction raised by Pip, there’s also the matter of ex- wives and children. Who wants that when they’re a 24 year old hottie? Gamble on the sexy guy every time.

  7. My husband isn’t loyal. He has female friends etc. He doesn’t get that this takes his SR from an 8/9 to a 4 as far as I’m concerned. Without hesitation.

  8. I think the answer is in the word “Bag”.. Some of the men I know who are in that age group have already been through one marriage and have no interest in remarriage right away. They will go out with younger women, but not marry them for many for the reasons mentioned. I’m very conscious of the age difference in some of the women who are interested in me, I will enjoy their company and what ever they want to share with me as a temporary gift, because I know they won’t stay.

  9. Oh come on. It’s because the married men and all women who are his co-workers will have a mental breakdown and probably sabotage his career and his life with active and deliberate malice if he does.

    Same thing for a 30 year old man and a 20 year old woman. Them women, his rich boss, and married men who caved are all going to beat the daylights out of any man animal who doesn’t do what he is required to do.

    Freedom. We have so many choices so long as we comply absolutely with every spoken and unspoken rule. People have so much freedom today. To much I think. The freedom of a 30 year old man to date a 20 year old woman so long as he doesn’t mind being laid off. Such vistas of freedom I see.

  10. Personally, I never wanted to marry someone much older than I was. I was attracted to men near my own age. I wanted someone young and lusty. I would never have thought of marrying someone in his forties when I was in my twenties. And I am glad I didn’t because he’d be in his seventies now, if he was still alive. I know such relationships work out sometimes, but it was never what I fancied.

  11. So true! I will admit that looking back, I can pinpoint times when my wife was working through her internal “cost benefit” analysis of our marriage. When I stumbled in my career and my confidence was shaken, she saw my weakness and now I realize that her Rationalization Hamster was in high gear as she was questioning me in her head. The little changes in her behavior all added up to her considering a hypergamous change. She would never admit it nor truly believe that. However, her actions and body agenda shouted it out.

    At her core, as with all women, she seeks security for herself and our family. Women want to be attracted to their husbands. They want other women to be attracted to them too; they are all competitive with each other and social validation makes a huge impact. Women want their man to have a strong career and solid money-making skills for stability; if he obtains professional validation as well, she loves it. This all part of his potential and its realization in her mind.

    I am thankful that I took the “red pill” when I did; I began working the MAP, excercising and got my career back on track. My marriage is now as strong as it has ever been. More importantly, I am not blind anymore. I see how it all works and I now use it to my advantage.

  12. Because they’re not nearly as hot. We want hottieboombalotties too, ya know, although it is admittedly a smaller “big factor” for us then for guys. And, while marrying money is great, if we have our own future fiscal mapped, we can adjust our pickings accordingly and compromise less in the way of attractiveness in a mate versus his potential income, easing back on the latter a bit in favor of the former.

    @Pip: with all due respect, while you might be willing to trade off some potential for rock-hard abs and an ass that could stop a bullet, you are actually not acting in your best interest in doing so, if you want to avoid divorce. The very fact that you are considering your independent income in the equation and allowing it to alter your choices means those trade-offs you make now are far more likely to harm your long-term relationship. He might be a hottie now, even if he works as an assistant manager at a tire store and goes to community college . . . but in five years, when he’s the overworked manager of the tire store, losing his hair, putting on a beer belly and complaining that you don’t sex him up enough because you’re working all the time, your attraction for him will plummet. And if your attraction falters, then your relationship is doomed.

    That’s why I advise single men to be extremely suspicious of women who have ambitious career goals of their own, with their own “fiscal future mapped” to an extent that the dudes don’t factor into it. At least if they want to have kids and not be DINKs. Ideally, for a good Red Pill marriage, a woman should have a career that allows ample reproductive opportunity with little long-term penalty, or be willing to change career paths in light of pregnancy and early childhood considerations. Further, she should be young enough to be a resilient and energetic mom with plenty of good reproductive years left in her, if they’re family-minded.

    That might piss some people off, but it’s the truth. The trade-off for a busy career-oriented woman is that you either get a super-supportive Beta husband you will eventually divorce after his usefulness has worn off, or you sub out your parenting responsibilities to strangers for money. The former option is unpalatable and ignoble for men and should be avoided for their own good. The latter is also far from ideal. A woman who is more invested in her career than her children is not going to be the best mom for your kids — or wife for you. While life in the 21st century mandates a certain amount of third-party parenting, that makes the direct, hands-on parenting all the more important.

    A woman whose immediate career goals are not as lofty, and who is willing (as you should be) to tailor them to the demands of family, is a far better fit. And she should recognize, clearly, the potential you demonstrate to her, not your rock-hard abs (those are nice extras, however). It’s important that you are both investing in each other and the relationship, and that means investing in each other’s potential, even in this day and age. You are investing in her ability to bear and nurture your children and contribute toward a warm and friendly home environment — including a sexually satisfied husband — and you are committing to busting your freaking ass to provide sufficient resources for that to happen. Not all resources are monetary, however, something women don’t often factor into the income/abs/hairline equation. If a dude doesn’t have the Beta skills to back up that sexy Alpha, then he’s not good Daddy/Husband material. You can always take a 20 year old dude who’s a 6 and make him an 8 with a year of serious working out, a new wardrobe, and a little professional success by the time he’s in his late 30s-early 40s, if hottness is a major factor (that’s what Mrs. I did). But it’s more likely that a dude who’s an 8 when he’s 20 will not only lack the Beta skills to be a good Dad and provider, he’ll also slip down as his metabolism slows and he becomes complacent. He could be a 6 or lower by the time he’s 40 and simply awful, if he lets himself go and lives on past glories. The “Al Bundy” dude. Your ability to out-earn him isn’t a safety net, then, it’s your own boat, your own escape hatch, and he will resent it and you for having it. You might still even love him, now that you’ve had kids with him, but he’s unhappy and you’re unhappy and completely unattracted to him. Those rock-hard abs made you bet on the wrong horse.

    And that’s the thing: you have to bet on the horse, not the race, so choose that horse wisely. Smart dudes know that “hotness”, especially for women, is a glamour. A better gauge of good mommy-material (and if you aren’t looking for that, then why bother with everything else?) is femininity, not “beauty”. And any woman who would put your objective physical attractiveness high on her list of dealbreakers is clearly more interested in the race than the horse, and she’s going to be a less-solid long-term prospect.

    So ladies, keep that in mind when you’re pursuing your mating strategies: the criteria you select in your potential mate says an awful lot about you, and perhaps more than you think it does. And the security you have with your career — the very thing making you confident enough to consider mating in the first place — could be a factor in how high-value men perceive you.

    Just an observation.

  13. Totally with you on career driven women but hard to see how an alimony laden 40 something carrying emotional baggage from previous relationships beats a 24 year old university graduate with great career prospects, no wrinkles and a fantastic arse.

  14. I think if you slide the age scale down a bit, it happens a fair bit these days, say a 25 year old with a mid 30’s unmarried guy. But, when it’s all said and done the chances are 50/50 they both going to be single again when the kids are ready to leave the nest anyway…..rinse, wash and repeat……

  15. This is good stuff, very insightful.

  16. flirtyintrovert says:

    To sum up what the other ladies have said:

    Girls like good looks and youth too! Aside from the aesthetics, there has been research that links older fathers to children with autism, schizophrenia, and other diseases. Men can be fertile until they die, but that doesn’t mean that the quality of their sperm stays the same. Also, in marrying a man 20 years your senior you have the sad knowledge that he will most likely go senile and die long before you do, leaving you to face your own old age alone.

    Now for my own thoughts, which are similar to Athol’s:

    Good women want to help their men succeed. Smart women know that believing in your man and helping him realize his potential will make him loyal to you. Women who skip the uncertainty and go after successful old guys are usually known as gold-diggers. Like the lazy animals in “The Little Red Hen,” they want to eat the bread that they didn’t help bake.

  17. If you don’t give a BLEEP what the 30 year old women say, then you can get a 18-24 year old girlfriend as a 30-35 year old man of MODERATE means and MODERATE looks. You will, indeed, be actively hit on by attractive ones if you are at all receptive. Not super often, but quite enough to leave no doubt. To the now 28 year old women “explaining” to me how that is not the case, I am glad you are so very disinterested and simply trying to help! You are such a generous person!

    With that in mind:


    Girls like good looks and youth too! Aside from the aesthetics, there has been research that links older fathers to children with autism, schizophrenia, and other diseases. Men can be fertile until they die, but that doesn’t mean that the quality of their sperm stays the same. Also, in marrying a man 20 years your senior you have the sad knowledge that he will most likely go senile and die long before you do, leaving you to face your own old age alone.

    To sum things up! I exist in a fantasy world! Where I have never heard the shame storm unloaded on men dating too young women! I live in a fantasy world! Or I’m deliberately lying because admitting the snarling threats delivered to men lowers my bargaining power and I am ALWAYS SELLING!

    The “invisible hand” in the steel gauntlet hammering your head in is actually merely a suggestion for your own good! If it in fact exists! Which it doesn’t!

  18. Younger women don’t bag 40-year-old men because if he’s not already married, then there’s something wrong with the guy.

    A divorced 40-year-old isn’t such a hot prospect either, especially if he’s had multiple divorces.

  19. It’s really difficult to welcome the 20 yr old stepmom into playgroup, we all immediately see her as a threat and feel compassion for the woman whose place she took and all her peers are off dating boys and don’t have children to watch every night. It might be good for men to marry younger women, but the younger women have a hard time fitting in if the age difference is too big.

  20. brown_eyes says:

    I am in my mid-twenties and I would not go out with a forty-something, too freaking old. xD

  21. When you’re feeling that compassion for the woman who’s “place was taken” by the 20 year old, remember that the original wife may have left HIM. And not necessarily because he was an awful husband either-she may have left him for a younger man!


  22. When you’re feeling that compassion for the woman who’s “place was taken” by the 20 year old, remember that the original wife may have left HIM. And not necessarily because he was an awful husband either-she may have left him for a younger man!

    It’s amusing to see that MacNut has “taken the bait” and assumed that “the woman” the young woman “replaced” had to be his wife, or even his girlfriend! That’s silly! A male animal of a certain age is the PROPERTY of women of a certain age group and nationality and they JUSTLY and with ABSOLUTE FAIRNESS resent poaching by younger or foreign women.

  23. @MacNut, you know, I think that was the situation in the case I’m thinking about. I think the wife ran off . I don’t even know the husband or the wife, I just know the stepwife.

  24. I was a divorced guy 34 with two kids who met a 24 year old hottie…. who is now my wife and soon to be mother of my next child.

    it happens.

  25. In regards to the playgroup comments, while the media keeps beating the drum about Husbands running off , it’s actually the wives that do it the most. So chances are very good that younger woman is looking after another woman’s kids not because she was replaced, but because she left.

  26. Maybe it is age difference or just word choice, but I believe that both men and women [should] value is trust. To say it another way, is your [perspective] spouse someone you trust so much you want then in the stack with the barrel of the shotgun over your shoulder?

    While my lovely bride is not as skilled as I am with a shotty doing dynamic room entry, when she squeezes my shoulder [the Ready signal] I feel that surge of confidence – because she has my back and I can count on her. I also know from experience that she will follow tight, even if I headed into a veritable sh!t storm – and we have done a few of those.

    Not something you will know right away if you are dating, but do something that requires trust and execution; pressure team shooting with the off-member reloading, rock-climbing, bringing in wood for the next winter – take the measure of the [perspective] spouse and yourself, and see if both of you have what it takes to function in a high-stakes environment a.k.a. US Marriage in 2012+.

    Loyalty is essential, but as a recovering engineer, having things you can measure and assess gives a person tools to evaluate the current/prospective relationship.

    Knew a guy in the flight program, that when he had problems and got dropped, he wife dropped him because she was going to be married to a Pilot, and now he wasn’t going to be one. Better to know that she trusts you than she is betting on what you’ll become.

    Old saying, “A man who finds a good wife finds a good thing”; particularly these days there is lots of chaff to pass on.

  27. So far, most of my ‘relationships’ have been with girls around 20-22. I’ve had some girls nearer to my age and some older too, but on average, the 20-22 group is a large segment of all the women I had a relationship with. This did not change from my late twenties to my early thirties.

  28. I am 50. I could see myself hooking up with a women in her early 30’s if given the chance, but I am not in the market. BUT, if I was I would definitely be going after women in the late 30’s early 40’s and not a 48 year old. I think the age gape widens for romantic interest as we get older. When you are 17, you would never want to get together with someone that is 25. When you are 20, 30 year olds seem so old, but when you start getting into your 30s things start to change and the acceptable age range for relationships starts to widen. Of course the end game can be a problem if you marry someone 10-20 years younger than you, you’ll end up divorced when you body starts to fall apart and they still have plenty of spunk!

  29. playyourpart says:

    I think a critical point being glossed over is that women are assessing your fitness to determine your future monetary and social value. Regardless of if they marry you before or after you make it big, assuming that you do, they are still gold digging. At least part of their assessment doesn’t concern the rock solid person that you are on the inside, but whether or not you’ll be buying her a Lexus in 10 years. Likewise, its not a great deal for you as she descends into Jabba the Hutness, and you are now making bank. Keep the woman that would stick with you even if you were a pauper, because she loves you, the person. Upgrade the ones that were gold-digging from the start; she’s just using you to advance her agenda. Maybe someone should teach her that banging someone successful isn’t the same as being successful. That’s the real lesson here. If you’re marriage didn’t start with that “for richer or poorer” attitude, there’s no need to keep the charade going.

  30. Yup, the old man died first — but look at the whole picture:
    He met her 40 years ago. Before the internet and all this manosphere stuff — so he must have just been manly.
    He was 40, she was 22.
    They were married, had 2 kids.
    His last act was pushing her out of the way of an oncoming car.
    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8821973

  31. I did marry a guy twelve years my senior. It is not currently working out and I can’t really recommend it to anyone else. It seems fine and even sexy and kinda sophisticated at first, but try looking down the road a little before you sign the line.

    He’s tired, and wants to chill. I get it, but it does not make me want to fuck him. He was cute as hell in his youth, though, so i got some gorgeous kids out of the deal. No complaints, really, even if it does look like the train’s fixin to derail.

    Some of Athol’s blog is about appealing to male hamsters.

    “YOU too, can nail hotter chicks at forty five than your sons can!”

    whatever pays the bills, A. ;)

    On that note! One of the homeliest girls I know is married to a guy twenty years her senior. He was Angry Divorcee Exhibit One, she was Most Likely To Wind Up With Ten Cats. They seem pretty happy together! If you are youngish, female and not even remotely “hot” (hey, its nobody’s fault) an old guy can be astonishingly forgiving about it. Might get a better looking batch of kids from him than you might get from what you could land in your nearer age cohort.

    Neh, but think carefully! Make sure he really cares about keeping himself up.

  32. That being said! I have a long term weakness for older guys, which my girlfriends mostly roll their eyes about. ;) it’s not a thing I seek out purposely, just that every time some cutie grabs my attention, and not just passing-glance attraction… He’s a white Midwestern boy between eight and twelve years my senior. I have a well entrenched “type,” dumb as it is! Guys my age have never really done it for me. Guys more than 12 years dont, either.

    I do have longstanding “dad issues” so perhaps this is a factor, loathe that idea but gotta face the possibility at some point, I suppose. Ha, so maybe I’d you want to date a younger woman, ask if she returns her father’s calls. ;)

    If things don’t wind up working out with my current husband, I’d bet you a weeks pay I’ll be seeing one that meets that description a year from now. I NEVER LEARRRRRN uggggh

  33. Joe_Commenter says:

    Despite protests to the contrary. It has been my experience that females will tell me that they could never date a man that was older, younger, fat, skinny, ugly, too good looking, or any number of traits. That is the theory.

    In reality, when a man with aforementioned traits, who has a decent social game, expresses interest in the female, all of the sudden those theoretical “I could never date a man that ….” protests seem to go away. And the woman that could never date a man that was (fill in the blank), is suddenly finding those men to not be so bad after all. It has happened to me quite a bit.

  34. Athol, if you will read Dr. David Buss’s book The Evolution of Desire, you will find that his research shows that men’s physical attractiveness peaks in the 35-45 year range, with only modest declines in the next few decades. Women’s of course, peaks in the 15-25 year range. I’m over 50, married two girls under 30, and continue to date girls under 30 (perhaps even hotter than before), but I have no desire to get married to them. So I think what you say about potential is true, but BS also has a valid point: older Alphas have no need to get married in order to “bag” the young hotties.

  35. Women value loyalty in their man because loyalty is
    a trait that is in very short supply among women.

  36. I think the main reason why women date men for their potential is because they want to contribute the the success of their men. Encouraging and pushing my man to reach his full potential is not only a gamble, but also a test of my own womanly judgement and skill. If you believe what the Bible says, it’s what women are made to do. It’s the greatest source of pride for a woman to take a man who was nothing, and through your care and encouragement he becomes somebody great. The future satisfaction of proving myself to be a worthy support for my man is to me worth forgoing men who are already really successful. For example, my boyfriend is in law school right now. I have had young lawyers who were on partner track in large firms fawn on me before, and I’m sure that they would date me if I was interested. I can’t imagine trading my boyfriend for one of them though, because I was with him from before he got into law school. Just by him getting in, I feel immensely proud of what “we” have achieved, whereas the achievements of the lawyers leave me indifferent. It’s the difference between making a cake and buying one. The one you make yourself always tastes better. I would seriously contemplate brutally murdering my boyfriend if he was ever disloyal to me though.

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