Don’t Tell Your Wife About Your Owie

Slightly taken out of context, but sage stand alone advice from this forum thread. 

Serenity:  This is an area where I really hate how evolutionary biology works. I wish I could be my husband’s friend when he has work troubles and support him and comfort him, etc.  But I can’t.  Don’t get me wrong.  I fake it and I fake it really really well.  I say all the right things about how I trust him and believe in him blah blah. I don’t express the doubt I feel that he’s handled it badly and is incompetent.

But I lose any tingle for him and I start feeling like his mom. I am wired how I’m wired, and no matter how much I wish it were different, I can’t change it; anymore than you can change the fact that you’re turned on by a young, pretty woman.  Don’t bother resenting your wife for it because it’s beyond her control.

I think the only exception is for a man who is so natural alpha that nothing can change his frame. My dad is a natural alpha, the John Wayne type.  Cut off his finger and drove himself to the ER.  Got a vasectomy in the morning and was water-skiing that afternoon.  He was a blue collar union worker all his working life, and that infrequently involved going on strike for months at a time.  I asked my mom once if she ever worried about losing a paycheck during those times, and she said she never had; that she always just trusted that my dad would provide. And she’s a strong, smart woman.  He has always just had such a capable alpha frame that she depends on him 100%.

This level of trust seems incredible to me because I worry about things like that all. the. time.

I think as you become more and more Captain and your career progresses (which it will), you will find her reacting very differently.  I can already tell a difference in my feelings toward my husband as he has started becoming just slightly more dominant.  I guess the hopeful thing to me is that these feelings are all caused by hormones and neuro-transmitters and those are affected by behavior, so totally within your control to change.

Change your behavior, and you will change her feelings for you.

AlphaBelle: This First Officer lives by analogies, so here ya go:

A Captain telling his wife about all of his worries and all the people who are mean to him at work and how he just does not understand how they can expect him to accomplish all of this in a day…

Is like…

…wait for it…

…his wife, who farts loudly and says she’s constipated and when she sneezes it makes her pee and she wants to buy this new bra but her boobs are actually two different sizes and nothing fits her right and her hemorrhoids are acting up and she has cramps and wow…where’d ya go, honey?

ALL of those horrid physical things may be true, but good golly. Deal with them, woman, and save the gory details for your uro-procto-gyneco-logist. The man who wants to see you as the sexiest woman on earth does not need to hear and help you analyze the condition of your sphincter. all he needs to know is that it’s a problem and he needs to drive you to surgery on Tuesday.

Athol:  Reading over that, my knee-jerk reaction is, “Well that sucks to be the guy then doesn’t it. What the hell do you want a wife for if you can’t even have a discussion about your day?” I think that’s true to a degree, but I also think there’s a spooky ring of truth to it all as well. When it a guy starts whining about his day and sounding like he’s being dominated somewhere else… it all sums out to being a Display of Low Value.

In the end there’s really only one Alpha move that matters. Winning.


Jennifer: I was reading this thread on the forum earlier today.  I think there’s a difference for me between a discussion about your day and whining incessantly about how people at work are stepping all over you, etc.  And can I just say Sean Connery…rawr….


  1. Mmmmm Connery indeed.

    Jennifer has the right of it. Big difference between “damn, work’s been stressful” and “waah, my boss isn’t fair, everything sucks, it makes me depressed, feel sorry for me!”

  2. How about this Bond response to a shit test:

  3. I never tell my wife about my owies because if I do, she’ll start nagging me about how I ought to go see a doctor. Honestly, a broken wrist is miserable enough without someone nagging you about it.

  4. Peregrine John says:

    Athol’s reaction is 100% on. It does suck to be a man and never, ever able to be yourself with the one person who most claims to want that. Not without severe and unwarned/unwarranted penalties, at least. It must also suck to have no agency or accountability, as the problem indicates, or to keep one’s value lowered thereby, so I guess we all have our issues.

  5. Peregrine John says:

    Ok,, less snarkily, Wifey above has an important distinction that’s worth remembering: expressing concern about something is one level, and going on about what are, in the end, minor-sounding (even if genuinely important) issues is another. Mind you, that latter option is the “openness” people are always claiming to value, so…

  6. taterearl says:

    “But I lose any tingle for him and I start feeling like his mom.”

    Because moms feel no sexual attraction to sons…so never turn your wife into your mother. You honor your mother and love your wife. Also never turn your wife into a priest or therapist either.

    Although you look at it from the other side of the coin, the more a husband acts like their wife’s father (granted he’s an alpha)…the more she adores him.

  7. That’s why guys have male friends to yack with and why wives should let them.

  8. I think something that makes a difference is, does he have a plan. If my husband were spiraling into depression, wanting me to make everything better, constantly complaining with no end in sight, yeah I’d lose attraction. But if it’s a temporary breakdown followed by some plan of action to get things where he wants them to be, I feel honored that he trusts me enough to show me his weak side. It’s ok to be weak sometimes, and it’s a display of his trust in my abilities to let me support him in those times; to let me present options when he’s too burned out to think of any. It’s when it’s all the time that there’s a problem.

    If my husband has a bad day or couple of days, I majorly up the comfort on my end. I make his favorite meals, buy his favorite treats at the store, get the kids out of his hair longer so he can de-stress, encourage him to sleep in on days off, take care of minor chores that are normally his like the trash. I take pleasure in doing those things to make his day just a little bit better. But if I had to maintain that same increased level of comfort indefinitely, I would start to resent it; it would start to feel like mommying my husband. And I’d start to feel like I can’t go to him for support when I have a bad day since his is so much worse. How do you lean on your husband when he’s the one constantly leaning on you? So perhaps like everything else, moderation is key. If it goes on too long, he should see a counselor or doctor.

  9. fullyawake says:

    DO NOT WHINE to your wife about how hard your life is, or about how scared you might be about the future, or about how you think you are a failure as a husband, father and provider. EVER. Find a man to bitch to.

    When I started my business a few years ago we hit some hard times. After about six months of grinding I let myself start whining to my wife. She, in essence, told me to sack up. In retrospect, the worst thing I did was seek validation as man from her. She is a fantastic woman; it is just not her role.

    Years later and six months into MAP, I am just now recovering my footing. DO NOT WHINE TO YOUR WIFE.

  10. practicallyperfect says:

    I agree with Mona, what we as women want is to hear what are you going to do about it, and then follow through with it.

  11. That’s right,it’s a one way street and and don’t you ever forget that.Keep pandering.

  12. PastorofMuppets says:

    I think we have to start by drawing a distinction between whining over life’s trivialities and seeking support through a legitimate time of difficulty/challenge.
    Nobody – man, woman, wife, husband, etc. – likes a whiner, much less gets the tingles for one. This isn’t gender specific. It isn’t evolution.
    However, if Serenity gets turned off when her husband seeks comfort while dealing with some of the real challenges and difficulties that life occasionally has to offer, then I think she’s trying here to use some evo psych bull—- to justify her own cold narcissism.

  13. You know what’s really sick? As a single man, you CAN talk like this to a woman you’re fucking but haven’t committed to.

  14. @PastorofMuppets: Don’t demonize Serenity. She’s doing the exact opposite of what we call the Female Rationalization Hamster. If her feelings are cold and narcissistic (I think that’s the wrong word, but close enough), she’s standing apart from them and is somewhat horrified by them. At least, that’s how I read her. The women of MMSL (some of them, at least) have a level of self-awareness beyond 99.9% of American women today.

  15. I feel honored when my DH tells me about his worries, stresses, etc. and like Mona, I up the comfort giving and make sure he has the needed time and extra treats as he works whatever out. I keep the kids away and make sure things are as peaceful as possible. Having said that, my husband isn’t a pussy and doesn’t whine just to hear himself vent. He only opens up about legitimate concerns and only after I ask him how he is doing and if he wants to talk about what’s bothering him. We lean on each other when needed. It’s a partnership not a constant score keeping, tactical challenge. Honestly, if you are constantly walking on eggshells and having to remember a bunch of rules to not lose your wife’s love, not have her lose her “tingle-ness” for you, etc., why bother being married?

  16. Peregrine John says:

    An excellent question, Jane, and far more concisely than I (attempted to) put it.

  17. So it’s OK for a wife to complain about her day, tell her husband that she is worried about stuff, and seek comfort from him. But, he can’t do the same in return and expect her to not lose attraction?

    And men are supposed to be ‘whining’ to each other?!

    My male friends have their own problems to deal with. On occasion they may confide in me, and I in them. But at least in my circle of friends personal problems are generally NOT discussed. And more importantly, MY problems don’t actually affect them, where they DO directly affect my wife. I’m inclined to think it would be in a wife’s best interests to know what is going on with her husbands career since she stands to gain or lose by its success. But I guess its a bad idea to let her see behind the curtain at how things actually work. It seems that showing weakness of any kind is akin to “going soft” and a man can expect his wife to be turned off by his humanity. After all, he is supposed to be the Alpha, always in control and always at the top. Nevermind what he has to do do GET there, as long as he keeps his mouth shut about it all is well.

    “his wife, who farts loudly and says she’s constipated and when she sneezes it makes her pee and she wants to buy this new bra but her boobs are actually two different sizes and nothing fits her right and her hemorrhoids are acting up and she has cramps and wow…where’d ya go, honey?”

    Ummm… I’ve had these conversations with my wife actually. Although I don’t recall her ever peeing herself when she sneezes. So since this is the female version of “male whining”, does it mean I’ve got the all clear to actually appear to be human to my wife?

  18. If the load can’t be shared then neither should the resources. It indicates to me that a lot of modern women are immature and unsuitable for marriage.

    If the risk is they renege on the contract after any loss of tingles, why bother commiting to them in the first place?

    Most of the time men with families will have enough problems without worrying about what the tingle defcon is at.

    No wonder marriage rates are heading for rock bottom.

  19. @Jane: Because you got married under Blue Pill pretenses and don’t want to be forever parted from your paycheck and kids.

  20. PastorofMuppers says:

    A person who recognizes his/her narcissism is still a narcissist. And awareness of it makes no less of a negative personality trait.
    That said, I think you’re dead wrong about the hamster. In fact, Serenity is hamstering hard by blaming her response on evolution and her “wiring.” She’s rationalizing what she recognizes as an undesirable response by blaming it on nature. But there’s absolutely nothing in our knowledge of human evolution to suggest this is so.
    Serenity’s feelings are a result of her personal psychology and socialization (which says any hint of vulnerability in a man = weak man), not any evolved trait. If it were the latter, you wouldn’t see so many female posters here offering a different take. There is simply no basis to argue for this as an evolved trait.
    And again, we need to draw a distinction between whining (which nobody, male or female, likes) and seeking support in times of legitimate difficulty.

  21. My parents had a problem with this. Dad would core-dump on mom; mom would feel powerless to help and just resent him for ‘sharing’. I don’t think dad ever expected or wanted her to take the reigns and do anything to fix his problems, the ‘sharing’ helped him to let off some steam. Mom, on the other hand, just got jumpier and jumpier- to the point of being catty.

    20/20 hindsight, if mom had more of a life outside looking after dad, she probably could have kept what he was whining about in perspective. As it is, they just ground each other down.

  22. FlyingDutchman says:

    Getting emotional support from your wife lowers here attraction to you. I can’t argue for this based on evolution or anything else, I can just say that I have witnessed this in my own relationship. This is one of those red-pill items that does not work the same in both directions. Your wife can cry on your shoulder, but you can’t cry on hers without the attraction taking a hit (not what you want).

  23. Milf-in-Training says:

    There’s a world of difference between:
    “First Officer Wife, we’re about to go through some tough times. It will take all my emotional strength to make it through, I need your support to do my best job fixing things. Secure the ship.”
    “Honey, my boss wasn’t happy with my latest report, and they’re talking about layoffs, and I don’t know how I’m going to manage, and I need a hug, and …”

    An Alpha man can ask for support, he just has to do it without whining and while still being In Charge.

  24. Okay ya’ll, context. For the first half of our marriage, my husband had major job issues brought about by his own actions. It’s on the thread so I won’t flesh it out too much, but just basically blowing up jobs through passive/aggressive insubordination, working against his boss, insisting on doing things his own way, etc. He lost out on promotions, raises, bonuses and during two of my pregnancies, he lost his job.

    He’s not a bad person; he just had some ego-driven behaviors and it took him a long time to deal with them. It hurt his career, it hurt our finances, it hurt our marriage and it hurt our family. We had hour upon hour of conversation over the years with me trying to help him figure things out, but he never managed to change the things within himself that caused him to act self-destructively. *In this context* of beta/omega behavior, it’s a tingle killer. Pregnant wife with no way to feed kids isn’t attracted to her husband. Well, there’s a headline. If that makes me a narcissist, so be it.

    It wasn’t until he found a work mentor that he recognized his issues, and has since done a 180. I totally admire his work ethic now and have a lot of respect for him. And yeah, tingles. Things are much different for us now. HENCE my statement that when you have an Alpha frame in your marriage, you can afford to talk to your wife about problems at work, although you should not expect her to fix them because if you’re the Captain, that’s your job.

    That is all.

  25. @Milf_in_Training Exactly so. In that same thread, I detailed about how different things were 5 years ago when my husband did lose his job during the Crash when his company eliminated 500 employees, including his whole department and we were out of work for 10 months.

    He was the complete Captain and became a hero in my eyes for the way he handled things. He set the tone for our family, we made cuts where we could, he worked his tail off to find a new job, and it was one of the most growing times we’ve been through. To this day, I bring up how much I admire him for dealing with that tough time.

    It’s all about Frame. Frame. Frame.

  26. @PastorofMuppets Okay, now Athol will laugh at me for having to correct someone on the Interwebz, but this is bugging me. If I’m such a stinkin’ narcissist, why am I bothering to try and help steu2817 out with a marital problem he’s having?

    Narcissist, humpf. And stop using words that I have to check the spelling every time I type the stupid thing.

    Athol, how do you *do* it? How do you deal with the criticism that comes with putting your thoughts out there? And you’re under your real name. I don’t know how you and Jen handle it as well as you do.

  27. PastorofMuppers says:

    I tried to clearly lay out the circumstances by which I’d consider your response narcissistic. If I failed in that regard, my bad. If your situation doesn’t fit those circumstances, then you have no need to be offended.

    That said, your response still isn’t a result of evolution.

  28. I think you can talk a bit about your issues, just don’t dump on her. Speak from a position of strength, keep it light enough, and end with a positive.

  29. Yep, there’s a MAJOR difference between treating your wife as a confidant, and between treating her as a mother-figure or personal therapist. The difference lies in when, how, and how much of your troubles with her.

    For example, if you’re a man facing a layoff, there’s a big difference between telling her “Honey, I think I’m about to lose my job! What am I gonna do, this is all I know!!” and “Honey, I think I’m going to have to change jobs soon. My employer’s letting people go, but I’m sending out resumes and contacting old colleagues in my field, so I expect I’ll have a new job before too long.” (Notice the lack of a specific time frame, so he’s not looking like an idiot if he says 6 months but is still unemployed after 7.)

    Yeah, it ain’t fair, but a man is essentially alone in this world even if he is married. He can only lean on his wife so much for support and will be regarded as a weak whiner if he leans on her too much for too long (and each woman decides for herself what “too much for too long” means to her). You’ll notice most of the women here and in the forum commenting positively on their men leaning on them for emotional support have men who do NOT do so very often. Less is definitely more here.

  30. I have to go with Athol’s first reaction – if this hair-trigger treatment is what you can expect, why get married? Why pledge your life, fortune and sacred honor to the sword of Damocles that can decide you’ve emoted enough for her taste, thank you very much, and you should just share your problems with your drinking buddies like single guys do anyway?

    Today I read another you-go-grrl hookup-culture Atlantic article that cited some stat that “women desire emotional connection with their partners at twice the rate of men.” They tried to paint it as a biology thing, but when you read threads like this, you realize a lot of it is a learned behavior on men’s parts.

  31. It is most certainly learned behavior, from men who’ve learned the hard way that yes, you CAN emote too much, share too much, with women.

  32. Again, I think the most important thing is, does he take action. It’s one thing to have life knock you on your ass, let your wife help you back up, and you get back in the game. It’s a whole different thing to have life knock you on your ass and then you just lie there permanently defeated and lamenting the hopelessness of it all, while she desperately tries to drag you back up. After all, you’re bound to each other and if you don’t get back up, her only options are to give up with you or cut the ties.

  33. @Milf-in-training
    Exactly. Shit happens, sometimes he needs a back-up gal. Enough said. Let’s hear the plan and get on that ASAP.

  34. Peregrine John says:

    Yes, action good hurt bad. We got it.

  35. My thoughts.

    Mom/Therapist vs. Wife – As his wife, I want to help him through the tough times. Listen, suggest and comfort him as a wife. BUT I don’t appreciate being used as his sounding board for every fear, insecurity or frustration. This makes me his emotion dumping ground and weakens my ability to be there for him when the shit really hits the fan. I don’t believe Moms or therapists would put up with a constant barrage of whining either for that matter.

    Evolution – My Captain/Warrior/Provider’s strength makes me feel safe. I don’t feel very safe when he walks through the door almost everyday with a huge sigh and complains incessantly. I run around trying to make everything better and in the process, lose attraction for him and gain attraction for men around me that seam stronger emotionally (more stable?? that make me feel safe/protected). We stop having sex. No exchange of chemistry. Our body agendas seek outside intervention. I think this is the Neocortex (Judgement/Morals) breaking down and the Libido taking over… evolution?

  36. It just seems very strange that one of the biggest complaints by women is their husbands being uncommunicative and not “Sharing their feelings” and yet it’s almost opposite of the truth.

    The more I read about relationships and how one sided they are, the less I want to get back into one. It seems we truly have not evolved much past the Bull moose who basically kills himself maintaining the attraction of the herd of cow moose by driving off other potential suitors….often for not much purpose as recent studies and genetic testing show the cows often get “Some on the side” from “Player bulls” in the bushes anyway. It’s easy to see how someone whose been through all this can end up being a “Player Bull Moose” , the other way is simply too much work with diminishing returns.

  37. Another factor to consider is that the dominant partner should never talk about potentially serious problems that the other person cannot do anything to solve, and which may never materialize anyway. Do whatever is necessary to prepare, but do not create hope draining and totally unnecessary stress.

    My favorite movie about how to be an Alpha Captain is “Six Days Seven Nights” with Harrison Ford and Anne Heche. The scene at the top of the mountain is a perfect illustration of “talking about your owie”.

    If you are smart and capable enough as a leader to solve problems and safeguard others (better than they could themselves), then (while also listening to their input) you need to enable them to have faith that you can and will make everything better.

    Then they will be able to function effectively and efficiently, and even be happy, instead of wasting energy worrying and flailing about.

  38. “This is an area where I really hate how evolutionary biology works. I wish I could be my husband’s friend when he has work troubles and support him and comfort him, etc. But I can’t. Don’t get me wrong. I fake it and I fake it really really well. I say all the right things about how I trust him and believe in him blah blah. I don’t express the doubt I feel that he’s handled it badly and is incompetent.

    But I lose any tingle for him and I start feeling like his mom. I am wired how I’m wired, and no matter how much I wish it were different, I can’t change it; anymore than you can change the fact that you’re turned on by a young, pretty woman. Don’t bother resenting your wife for it because it’s beyond her control.”

    I agree with Serenity, and I do not think that she is a narcissist at all. Men and women are “wired” differently, in some very fundamental ways.

    I have no problem with how she is (and I applaud her self-awareness), since I am “wired” in the way that makes us complementary.

    Where I have a problem with women (and I am not directing this at Serenity, especially since I know nothing else about her), is that so few of them are what they claim is characteristic of their sex: kind, caring, empathetic, nurturing …

  39. Chesterfield says:

    This post about Ricky Raw’s 31 days of game over at badger’s site earlier really drove this home for me.

    Item # 6 Your Woman Can Never, Ever, Truly Be Your Best Friend or Closest Confidante.

    It struck me (hard) that no matter how much I long to truly open up to my wife and let her be my best friend in the whole world… I can’t allow it. If we’re friends then by definition I’m in her friend zone and that’s definitely NOT where I want to be with her. I can be her friend and confidante, but she can never truly be mine. When I accepted this I felt the last thump of my blue-pill white knight’s dying heart. I understand now why I can not draw strength from my wife without losing her respect. If she’s the strong one then which one am I? Of course I can have a bad day now and then where I need her to encourage me and help me get back on my feet, but the more strength I draw from her the more of her respect it costs me.

    It hurt at first but I’m a better husband and father now for knowing it. Hearing it so plainly put by @serenity from a woman’s point of view makes it easier to accept that, like it or not, this is just the way things are.

  40. @Chesterfield You said it so much better than I did. I can give my husband the support and encouragement he needs during the bad times, and I do, but if it goes on too long where I am the strong one and he is the weak one, eventually the attraction goes away, and I am left with a husband whom I dearly love, but….

  41. And all of this causes me to be concerned for what happens if I get sick and/or hurt in an accident and become the less “strong” partner. Honestly this really is all about the man always being the strong one in charge, yet NO person alive can always be on top. People get hurt/sick/fired/etc. all the time, and it occurs to me that in such cases many women would apparently start losing respect and “tingle” for their husbands by no actual fault of his own.

    IF women want “John Wayne” in their lives, then they better step up the 1950’s behavior, because I don’t see any balance or fairness in this thread. All of you women that claim to lose tingle when your husband “whines”, what exactly are you doing to balance his extra stress of always having to appear to be “the man”? I’ll be all for playing the John Wayne role if my wife wants to start playing the happy homemaker. As long as we both have to work, and both have to share the chores, then IMO we should both be able to share the strong and weak roles in our marriage when necessary. But if I have to always be a rock for her, then I want something in return for the years of life I’m losing because I have no where to vent the stress of life BEING that rock. You can’t have it both ways ladies: you are eather living an egalitarian lifestyle, or you are the first officer. I see lots of woman that seem to like the benefits of first office, but few that are truly willing and able to be subserviant to her captain. AND, that doesn’t mean just letting him pick where you eat or what movie to watch. That means in ALL THINGS he has the final say. When I see more of that, I’ll be more than happy to find other outlets for the frustrations of daily living. Oh, and if we can’t whine about work, then you can’t either. Don’t like that? Do what I’m supposed to be doing and go bother one of your friends.

  42. Alpha is actions speaking louder than words. Beta is words speaking louder than actions. If the captain of the relationship is her hero, the wife finds his momentary vulnerability attractive (another hole in his heart I can fill). A hero can afford some vulnerability. Otherwise, he comes across as needing a band-aid for every little boo-boo and a kiss to make it feel better. It gets old after a while, just another hole to fill in a heart that looks like swiss cheese. “You know where the band-aids are.”

    Complaining about “owies” often means that although the situation is tough, and he wishes so much that it would all go away, he doesn’t want to rise to the occasion and take any action, and if solutions are offered that involve action on his part, they won’t go over well. For all practical purposes, that means it’s a boo-boo, not a real wound.

    Complaining is habit forming, similar to nagging, all it’s really saying is “I’m not haaaaapy, I can’t own my shit.” A Captain talking like this?

  43. @Ted D You sound really angry, and I can understand why. This is what I’d like you to know. I don’t like this stuff any better than you do. I wish I could feel sexually attracted to my husband no matter what his behavior is like. I really do wish that. But sexual attraction isn’t something a wife can manufacture. She can fake it, sure, but she can’t create it if the man is not acting in a way that causes it.

    I’ve also wondered what would happen if my husband truly got ill. That happened to my super alpha Dad and he had enough Alpha in the attraction bank to carry him through for about 5 years until he got better. The best advice I can give you if you want your wife/woman to truly desire you (not just love you) is to bank as much Alpha as you can for the hard times when you’re down.

    I hope this helps. I really would like to see every guy here get his heart’s desire.

  44. @Ted D: I’m here to tell you that you CAN have a wife that is submissive and still willing to let you vent and be succor for you. It’s not one or the other. I can only speculate here, but if the initial chemistry/attraction is “weak” between these women and their men, then I see how certain behaviors of these husbands will make the women lose their lady wood. It’s an excuse in my opinion. If you are crazy about your husband, then I don’t see how his showing vulnerability here and there would make you lose your heat for him. I am speaking from my own personal experience. I am my husband’s confidant and he mine. It’s a partnership, but I strictly at my core, leave the decisions to him. I love that he tells me what is going on with him, and I’ve never not tingled for him. I did make sure not to settle when I married him. He is my ideal in physicality and personality/values and I his, so that helps a lot certainly. But if you aren’t totally into each other from the beginning, then I can see where you need to constantly be “gaming” your way to what is assumed to be happiness; but it can’t really be natural happiness if you’re dodging bullets and trying to follow strict rules for fear of losing the respect of the one person that should always have your back. It’s back to basics I guess, it’s critical to choose your mate carefully.

  45. Jane for the win.

  46. Serenity – “You sound really angry, and I can understand why. This is what I’d like you to know. I don’t like this stuff any better than you do. I wish I could feel sexually attracted to my husband no matter what his behavior is like. I really do wish that. But sexual attraction isn’t something a wife can manufacture. She can fake it, sure, but she can’t create it if the man is not acting in a way that causes it.”

    Angry is too strong a word, but somewhere between angry and bitter perhaps. I suffered from beta overload in my first marriage, and as can be expected it failed spectacularly. I’m on marriage number two, and thankfully I found this site very early in this relationship. So at least I’m currently not working my way back from a deeply dug beta whole. I get that attraction is not negotiable, but that isn’t my issue. My issue is more along the lines of what seems to me to be a lack of loyalty to a man as a person, instead of simply as a sexual object. That is, I can understand how a guy in the dumps isn’t sexually attractive (or attractive at all for that matter). But what I don’t get is how not being sexually attractive for awhile while things suck can lead directly (and sometimes quickly) to the women ejecting. Don’t get me wrong, if a guy gets booted from work and a year later hasn’t done anything, I don’t blame his wife for getting pissed. But honestly, who doesn’t get kicked in the gut once in awhile? Personally when these things happen, I have to go through a little ‘pitty party’ for myself before I get tired of being a loser and act. In those instances, the best thing my wife can do for me is simply weather it and assist me in just getting it all out so I can move on. But what I’m seeing here indicates that IF I rely on her for that, I can expect her to lose attraction for me, and the consequences may be far worse than a few weeks without sex.

    Not everyone can immediately shake of a huge setback, and each of us has our own process to deal with those challenges. It just seems like from what I’m reading, my particular process isn’t very attractive, which I understand. But IMO a wife’s loyalty to her husband should carry her through until he can get back on the horse. but intead, many seem to just give up and move on, which doesn’t say much for their character, again IMO.

  47. @Ted D I absolutely agree with you. A wife owes her husband loyalty no matter what. I personally would never cheat on my husband, or even sexually refuse him for that matter, no matter what he did. What I’m talking about here is desire, or sexual attraction. And that part is involuntary.

    Are you part of the Forum? I don’t think I’ve ever seen you comment there.

  48. Serenity – “Are you part of the Forum? I don’t think I’ve ever seen you comment there.”

    I read regularly, but don’t participate much. I actually found Athol well over a year ago, and through him have made the rounds through the ‘sphere. I came here because I was looking for the reason my first marriage failed, and fortunately I found it before I got too far into this one. I’ve been working my MAP with great success, but I still have a long way to go. I currently have no complaints in my marriage, and I’d like to keep it that way, which is why I’m still around. Plus together we have four children, and I’d very much like them to have a better shot at finding whatever happiness they want than I did through lack of good knowledge.

  49. Yep, I think Athol’s a genius, and his ideas have really helped my marriage.

    We have 5 kids and I want them to grow up in an intact family.

  50. enlightened1 says:

    A “whole” family is far more important than an “intact family. Many of us have made poor relationship decisions…i.e. staying in bad ones in order to keep the family “intact.” ….Whole being a happy, functioning, productive life.

  51. Joe_Commenter says:

    Great topic. I used to feel ripped off when I came to understand that Serenity’s reaction to temporary weakness was typical of many women. My wife loves me more than life itself. But she cannot help feel a reduced attraction at some level when I am not dominating my world.

    But the men here should not feel bad about this situation. I have found that when I have stress and anxiety in my life, my wife picks up on it and asks about it. And when I mumble something inscrutable about work, refuse to discuss it with her and then say everything will be fine, her TINGLES FOR ME GO UP. I still allow myself to share some things with her, but I am more strategic about it. I never share things that make me look weak.

    Anyway, women LOVE LOVE LOVE to worry about their men…… As long as the men do not get all emotional about problems that the wife cannot fix anyway. It is very alpha to be seen as someone who has some heavy problems to deal with, but is man enough to handle them. Men need to learn to use life’s inevitable problems as another tool in MAP.

    I tell my wife that she is my wife, not my therapist. I will not dump my crap on her. It’s not her job.

  52. Joe_C – “And when I mumble something inscrutable about work, refuse to discuss it with her and then say everything will be fine, her TINGLES FOR ME GO UP. ”

    I’ve seen this is action since finding Athol. But, my issue was: where they hell do I vent this stuff if I can’t do it with my wife? I’ve only recently begun to discuss such stressful issues with my male friends, because in the past I considered them too private (and too whiney actually) to discuss with my male peers. What I’ve found though, is not only are they receptive to hearing it, they are (and in some ways have been) doing the same with me. I simply didn’t recognize that THEY were where I should be discussing my fears and anxieties and NOT my wife. To me, my wife had more stake in how things turned out, so I felt like she should know everything going into these decisions. But, that just isn’t the case. Its fine to do a little grumbling, and on occasion go into it in depth, but truly she seems happiest when I simply figure out what to do on my own and simply inform her of my plans. My friends however are great at helping me work out exactly what that plan will be. And although I figured they would feel like I was imposing on them, like I said above they are very receptive and willing to help. I think a few of them are wondering what took so long…

  53. @Joe_Commenter @Ted D

    Sounds like both of you are getting to a good place. The Forum is also really good for venting; a lot of guys going through similar problems.

    Also, did just want to emphasize that at least for me, I’m okay with temporary venting of problems, just not long term displays of weakness.

  54. I agree with Serenity. It’s not that a loving wife doesn’t want to know what’s going on in her man’s life. She does!! So when he comes home and says, “I’m not sure if bonuses are going to be funded this year…” and her eyes go wide in panic, he tells her it’s fine. Not to worry. He has some ideas about how to make up the funds and they will talk about it after the kids go to bed. Calm. Confident.

    Or if things are really bad, like he loses his job or has a new manager who hates him, he needs to talk to her, not go all John Wayne and shut her out. But when he talks about it, even if he breaks down, he needs to bring balance back into his Frame at some point soon. Getting up the next morning and aggressively job hunting, or prepping his resume and touching base with his contacts in case the Manager from Hell decides to cut him loose…all those things help bring balance back. It’s not that a guy can’t cry. It’s that he needs to be conscious of balance.

    This is exhausting for red pill women, too, you guys. We are constantly working to keep the girl alpha/beta balance in our frame. I know this is m M s l, but don’t forget that you are not comparing apples with apples when you compare a red pill guy to women in general. That doesn’t look fair. But two red pill people in a marriage are both working equally hard. And having lots of great sex, but that’s all I am going to say about that.

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