Wife Leaves For Other Man, Husband Doesn’t Cry Long…

I’ve had a *very* busy December. I mean crazy busy because so many of the relationships I was tracking suddenly seemed to intensify in the second half of December. I think the combination of Christmas parties and New Year’s Eve parties is almost like a “resolve the relationship” trigger. If there’s another man in the picture, she’s going to try to get to him on those special events. There’s alcohol and opportunity… and all those Emotional Affairs turn into Physical ones.

I’ve had some super salvaging of relationships in December. The husbands that have won have won big, but not everyone has won.

In January, it seems the December failures have all the shit hit the fan. In those cases wives are all leaving my guys that have been running the MAP faithfully.

But…

…the husbands are all starting to crack up laughing.

Let me explain that.

I’m 5 for 5 with the following pattern of guys who have been running the MAP and have had wives leave them in January.

At some point in 2012 the husband figured out all was not well in the marriage and sought out MMSL. They all started running the MAP and self-improving. They all had varying degrees of positive response from the wives. They started digging into the problems and sorting them out. But for one reason or another, the wife wasn’t interested in staying, and when the ultimatums came down… actually more often than not the ultimatum was triggered by the wife rather than the husband… she left the marriage.

So let’s be clear here – ALL of the husbands were very much trying to save the marriage. I’m talking 5 for 5 husbands have endlessly emailed me or been on the forum, actively trying to save the marriage and fix things with their wife.  But despite best efforts, each one have been dumped and left.

But…

I am 5 for 5 for having those husbands get hit on by other women as soon as the wife is out of the picture. As in attractive other women. As in younger attractive women. As in… “Athol, I don’t understand why I was trying to save things with X anymore. I know I’m going to miss her, but being completely honest, I don’t think I want her back anymore.”

I’ve had so many emails and messages in the last month to the effect of, “My SBTX wife is 44, my new gf is 32.”  The overall feeling husbands have about their wives is one of amused sorrow. They are more sorry for her that she’s fucked her own life and happiness up than anything else.

Or as a message today read…

“And good luck to her. OM is a total flake. Still living with his wife as they go through divorce. And his job is still on the line. Work wise I’m 2-3 levels above him. Even if they got together I give it 6 months max. Which means she is a forty something divorcee with four kids in the marketplace. And I’m me!”

So all in all, I’m kind of expecting about 4 of 5 of those same wives attempt to make their way “back home” at some point in 2013. Which has got to be a humiliating moment for them to admit they made a mistake. It’s also got to be a stomach churning moment to realize as a 44 year-old woman that to move back home, you’ve somehow got to outclass a 32 year-old that’s sleeping with your husband. Good luck with that.

So like I’ve said from the very beginning, there’s no magic bullet that makes the wife be into you, but if you run the MAP, there’s going to be a woman out there that will be into you. Plus I think the MAP approach of holding the moral high ground really matters in how attractive you are should she decide to bail on the marriage.

Being an attractive man, who did the right thing, and doesn’t turn fetal going…. “Whhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?” with snot pouring from your nose = a hot item.

Don’t misunderstand me here. To a man, the desire has been to fix things with the wife, but she didn’t buy in…

A good wife should have nothing to fear from her husband reading MMSL. But if she wants to go spread her legs for a douchebag… well… this is how it all ends for her.

Anyway… still working on the new book… but quite obviously the original one isn’t all that bad lol. Buy it on Amazon.

 

Comments

  1. Buy the book. Read it. Twice. At least.

  2. I read this post and about fell out of my chair. This is basically what I am going through with my wife (soon to be ex-wife). While she hasn’t cheated on me (or at least no admittance or evidence) she went all batshit crazy and complained in December about how our relationship has changed and complained about every perceived mistake of the last ten years (all petty bullshit). This was absolutely out of the blue. Pretty much every problem in her life was my fault.

    At first, I tried to appease her ( big mistake!) but did a lot of soul searching and decided that I would be much better off with a divorce. I am 38 but look much younger (I still get carded for alcohol depending on my attire), make a great living (200k+).. I’m really looking forward to internet dating and have started flirting with young hot chicks. This is fun.

    It’s crazy, but now that I have gone crazy Alpha and virtually extinguished Beta she wants to work things out!! Regardless, she has lost me. I feel the same amused sorrow, as Athol puts it. My biggest issue is those dealing with the kids.

    I did buy the original book and loved it. My relationship is still ending but I am a better man for it.

  3. What’s that thing where you hype up the new product too soon before it’s out, and then people don’t want to buy the old one anymore?

    I have that.

    That thing.

  4. When the wives made the counter ultimatums, they were likely bluffing from what they thought was a strong hand. This is a result of the current fem-centric society that over-inflates female egos and self perceptions, and in which males are supposed to grovel and beg forgiveness at the slightest hint of displeasure. The wives felt that they could threaten to leave, and that either a) the husband would fall back into line so that the wives could keep the now higher value husband without having to comply with all those hard demands, or b) they could walk and quickly get an even better man. After all, they are High Value women. The problem is that they were bluffing with not even a deuce in the hole. heh.

    Also, this is likely the source of the FEMINIST MYTH about men dumping their older wives for younger, hotter models. The men try to salvage things, the women blow it up, not understanding the true relative SMV, and then when they find out that the ex-husband is able to quickly upgrade while they are having a difficult time in the post-divorce market, they have to hamsterationalize their bad and selfish decision by making it all a plot on the part of the ex-husband that he was planning to do it all along, and that the husband dumped her, the poor, poor woman.

  5. Ha! This is almost exactly what happened to me two years ago. Wife was hitting on a neighbor guy all through the holidays and BAM! In January she starts talking divorce with me (and I was such a Nice Guy back then). I got my shit together in a matter of months and we ended up staying together, but the holidays are the time when you really have to be on your toes with your marriage if you feel at all like things aren’t going good…

  6. Except for the younger demographic, the really high-value people of both genders are hard to find and are likely locked into a happy marriage. A high-value 38 yo man could easily find really nice younger women simply because he is close to their age and many people marry later in life these days. There would be fewer available high-value ladies his own age.

  7. buy the book. i will show up at yer house when i gassy. it really is a great set. seriously, never read a relationship book i liked. MMSL is money.

  8. taterearl says:

    A woman who marries in her 20s and divorces in her 30s…is like investing in a stock at it’s highest price and cashing out when it hits rock bottom.

  9. whatmeworry says:

    A younger hotter woman to warm your bed is great, but the courts still hand your ex all the cash and prizes.

  10. Hey Athol, when ARE you planning to release that other book? If I get the current book now, does that “grandfather” me into the next one, or is that a separate thing I’ll have to buy?

  11. I’m a bit stunned at people scoffing at buying an amazing book for $9.99 just because a new book will be released at some point in the future.

    $9.99 to possibly save your marriage, but to certainly save the one life you have from stress and regret.

    It’s less than a meal at McDonalds.

    Buy the book. Now. Or does your crabby fat wife control the purse strings, too? Even more reason to buy it.

  12. Buy the book now.
    Buy the next book too.
    Athol needs all the support we can provide.
    He is one of the (very) few working (hard) to save Western Civilization.
    Join with him.
    Work the MAP.
    Every.
    Day.

  13. The Osborne Effect.

    That’s the thing.

  14. Mistys dad says:

    The MAP can’t be overstated in the ability to move on after she blows everything up.

    Also, once the transition to newly single begins to happen, the Black Arts of Red Pill male knowledge kick in. Being able to deal with shit tests, keeping an alpha frame, making sexy moves, and initiating all around hamster destruction, make someone an attractive target.

    The balance of the sexual market is completely tipped in favor of the Red Pill.

    Get in shape.
    Get your shit together.
    Get your attitude right.
    Learn to repel the rodent.

  15. I wonder if anyone has ever done research to show the timing and frequency of divorce filings. I like statistics and thought it would be interesting to see…

    For those hesitant to buy the book…really? For the cost of a trip through the drive-thru, you’re going to get a manual on how to be a better man in ALL aspects of your life. This isn’t just some motivational speaker blowing smoke, this is an instruction manual on how to get your man card back.
    Or for the ladies, an instruction manual on why you try to take his man card, and how to encourage him to take it back.

  16. taterearl says: A woman who marries in her 20s and divorces in her 30s…is like investing in a stock at it’s highest price and cashing out when it hits rock bottom.

    Black Friday Women.

  17. Get in shape.
    Get your shit together.
    Get your attitude right.
    Learn to repel the rodent.

    Add two more to these…
    Have a second passport
    Have a job you can do outside the U.S.

    THAT is freedom and that gets you out of the monopoly market of American girls while also taming the child support beast – the ultimate killer of freedom

  18. @Shanna:

    I wonder if anyone has ever done research to show the timing and frequency of divorce filings. I like statistics and thought it would be interesting to see…

    Visit Dalrock’s site (http://dalrock.wordpress.com/) and search for “divorce statistics” (http://dalrock.wordpress.com/?s=divorce+statistics). You will not likely find a more comprehensive presentation of real divorce statistics as opposed to what is more commonly portrayed by the media and feminist sites (but I repeat myself). The only problem is that there are so many posts that it may take a while to slog through all of them, but it is truly an eye-opener.

  19. Yep, MAP and “Suit Up” and the world’s your oyster. I was out last night at my favorite Pub sitting next to a EPL woman crabbing about how unfair it was men expect “older women” to have bodies like 20 year olds. She went on how her X’s new girlfriend is 33 ( he’s 57 ,she’s about 50). I simply said, “Good for him, you must be glad he was able to get over you and move on” , needless to say she wasn’t too pleased…..

  20. mmaier2112 says:

    Tinker: That’s good work right there.

  21. enlightened1 says:

    Remo-
    Yes, that “ultimate killer to freedom” is having to support and provide for those children you brought into the world. It works so much better if your ex wife will do all that dirty work. But your idea to just split and go international is brilliant. Hot younger babes, no cares. I’m sitting here scratching my head wondering why a wife would prefer being divorced, raising children alone, overworked and poor to living with some of you guys? Hmmm…the question does beg.

  22. 2/3 of divorces are initiated by middle aged women, so I believe. I wonder how many go on to a further long term relationship and how many actively choose not to? It seems to me this post assumes women want a relationship and will be in the marketplace. I’m sure many do but I’ve felt for a while that, if my marriage ended for any reason, I wouldn’t want to be on the market ever again. I’m not even middle aged. Relationship – BTDT. (My husband does not have the ability to create ‘dread’ in me as a result).

  23. Just some thoughts to balance the debate – even tho I understand how empowering the notion of being able to attract a younger woman is to men who are now looking for their next partner.

    My mate the divorce lawyer warns against marriage to much younger women – apparently there is a high risk of younger ladies marrying well off older men and divorcing quickly with a handsome payout leaving the man without his original family and of course with much less of his money. Also consider the generational difference – different interests, retirement ages, family aspirations etc. Several of my older friends have mentioned avoiding relationships with women of child bearing years as they don’t want babies at their age.

    Tinker – contrary to what the lady said, most older men I know don’t expect a 50 yo partner to have a 20 yo body, but for a lady to be ideally within a healthy weight range, fit, happy and well groomed. If every thing else is in order, then they are willing to take a “mature” attitude and talk themselves into thinking their partner has a perfect body. Awesome actually sincerely told me the other day I have a perfect body (bless his little cotton socks and rose coloured glasses!).

    Finally, older men have body issues as well, so it behooves partners to be tolerant of each other’s faults as long as each is doing his or her best to be the best possible person they can be. The 57 yo reasonally rampant man could slow down in his 60s and fail to perform comparably with a man his partner’s age leaving his young wife wondering how nice life would be if ………

    ANYWAY – I’m glad the gentlemen Athol is helping have made the best of things. It’s a heart wrenching time and if they can find some comfort and support, then that is wonderful. I wish them all the best in their future lives and every happiness. :-) C

  24. I hope all you guys out there that are getting divorced (or are divorced), and are self aware and fully running the MAP and full of Alpha are not contemplating another marriage! I tell you what, I would never get married again if for some reason my marriage fell apart. Unless they are young enough and desire to have some children, otherwise live it up and sleep with as many women as you can!

  25. Elightened1, we are talking about guys who have been left by their wives. For the most part none of us guys who have been dumped in this way wanted the divorce and were doting family men. None of these guys were perfect, but were not running around, drunks, gambling or abusive. In some of these cases here on MMSL the wife that left has not only dumped her husband, but the kids as well.

    These men were forced by circumstances to create a new life for themselves, they did not plan for the last year to “go international”. or have “Hot younger babes, no cares”, their wives are the ones that left in most cases for some other guy. To suggest that it’s somehow the husbands fault entirely that their X’s chose to “being divorced, raising children alone, overworked and poor to living with some of you guys?” is just more rationalization for the ultimate crime against your husband, infidelity. So your question might be better addressed to “what drives some women to abandon everything they had for a roll in the hay “…..

  26. Candice, I didn’t suggest that’s what older guys think, the lady herself brought this statement up, probably as her way of dealing with the fact she found the “Grass wasn’t greener” after EPL’ing on her X. It’s pretty common refrain ” Where have all the good men gone” on woman’s forums where the “You go Girl” crowd of divorcee’s hang out ;~)

    As an older guy myself , I can tell you that men do appreciate “a lady to be ideally within a healthy weight range, fit, happy and well groomed”, but I don’t see very many older women about that fit that description.
    Sad to say, in my neck of the woods it’s very rare to find a woman over 40 with a BMI under 25 and all that pleasant to be around. On the other hand, my local gym is full of guys 40-55 who are in great shape, have good jobs and are well groomed, but very few prospects of finding anyone comparable in their own age range to date.

  27. Dead Weather says:

    I love this post, spot on. I have told every guy I know to read the book, even if their marriage is “all good”. Just about being aware, taking care of your shit. I gave my wife the ultimatum, and we are working on it, but reason she is attracted again is because I am 37 pounds down looking like I am 25 again. Who knew I would see abs again at 40 lol, but really besides the physical, it’s my entire attitude change and becoming more alpha. BTW, the forms are so awesome, talk about real advice that doesn’t candy coat shit.

    Read the book, take the red pill, have it wake your ass up. I have two sons, they are going to be getting whatever version is out at that time when they hit that age:) I still want to help Athol design some Dopamine T-Shirts to sell;)

  28. LOL, Black Friday women.

    Buy the book. My STBEx threatened divorce 2 years ago. I was betaized and begged her to stay for the kdis, and then I got MMSL…not perfect, but trying my best. She didn’t file until last spring and she didn’t take her ring off until this Christmas. I blew up her idea for her to keep the kids and have me move out ASAP.

    We are inching to a close and I have a few things in my pocket since she’s Miss Know It All right now. But she’s at 44 and I am getting nice conversations going on online with gals who don’t even have my pic yet, just a few game-like smooth typing.

    Even when you’re down and running the MAP and the woman you had planned to spend the rest of your life with looks with you at unveiled hatred, you learn and pick up bits and pieces….simple things like forcing a smile on yer face and flirting with a waitress who taps your arm as you crack a joke….pre-game I wouuldn’t have known that people don’t touch each other if you don’t like ‘em, etc….

  29. BC nailed it;

    “Also, this is likely the source of the FEMINIST MYTH about men dumping their older wives for younger, hotter models. The men try to salvage things, the women blow it up, not understanding the true relative SMV, and then when they find out that the ex-husband is able to quickly upgrade while they are having a difficult time in the post-divorce market, they have to hamsterationalize their bad and selfish decision by making it all a plot on the part of the ex-husband that he was planning to do it all along, and that the husband dumped her, the poor, poor woman.”

  30. I will NEVER marry again EVER!! It’s a lose/lose strategy most of the time. I was once the doting family man. Now I am just a doting father.

  31. Dead Weather, those t-shirts would be dope!

  32. Changed Man says:

    This is a great post and I can’t agree enough.

    I busted my ass MAP’ing. I lost 100 lbs, size 42 to 31, 15% BF… but it wasn’t enough. My wife blew our marriage up in Sept and got my own place. At first, it was difficult adjustment but now I’m loving it. Athol can add me to his list of husbands not crying. :-)

  33. Another Wife says:

    @A wife – I agree this is something to consider.  The strategy of showing a wife or ex-wife what she has lost/may lose and could not hope to “catch” with another man relies on her desire to capture another man.  I have seen wives divorce in middle age and choose to be alone.  Most of these women have children that are grown and out of the house.  There is no need to “find” a man to parent her children.  Also, should the ex-wife choose to be with another person, they may not get re-married and instead enjoy a life unencumbered – the same as the divorced man.

    Care should be taken when a man issues the ultimatum.  Even though the husband has worked for months to fix structural issues, that may not be enough to outweigh what could have been years of problems. For the husband saying “I don’t think I want her or this marriage anymore”, the wife may also say “Me, too.” and feel relief.

    I am self-sufficient financially.  I choose to be with my husband because my life is better with him in it. If he became unhappy and the requests he made were not things I would do, I would wish him well on his way and hope he found what he was looking for with someone else. I’m grateful that for now, the positives outweigh the negatives for both of us. Should that change, and we divorce, I would be content not re-marrying.

    Dread does not work on me either as I smile and say “If she is what you want, go get her!” He hasn’t done it yet. :)

  34. I find it difficult to overstate the importance of this post.

    This describes what happens when the feminist fantasy crashes into reality. All the analysis, all the warnings made by men (and some women) that the feminist fantasy will only, ultimately, hurt women – all of it shouted down or drowned out – is finding realisation. So tragic and so avoidable.

    And yet still we have some women posting who will not accept the reality, still trying to shame, confuse and obviscate to somehow prove that it is not true or somehow that they are immune.

    Enlightened1 – do you really think that the men that visit this site – a site about saving your marriage – are mostly deadbeat dads?!?!?! Are you really that ignorant? The insult is intended – your comment was offensive to me, and, I suspect to many other men reading this.

    A Wife – you seem to think the fact the your husband is not able to instill dread in you is something to be proud of. If he cannot instill dread, he cannot instill passion or lust – they are two sides of the same coin. And no, I will not believe it when you now tell me he is passionate. You are both paying a price for this.

    Candice – after what these men have been through, do you really think any of them are minded to be re-married to a younger model? They enjoy what they have to offer but advising these guys that there are dangers in realtionships with younger women is both obvious and redundent. When marriage isn’t the point, these men have little to fear.

    I’m not hating on women here – there are a number of comments here and on Alphagame from women who ‘get it’, who understand the messege. But this constant hamsterisation from so many women who just refuse to accept reality just beggers belief.

    What are you going to believe – the words of Athol, a man who lives his life at the bleeding edge of today’s SMP, a man working to help couples rebuild their relationships, a man credited by many with saving thier realtionships and marriages, when he tells you that men are finding success post divorce.

    Or your own delusions?

  35. Bristlecone says:

    Add me to your list of lemonade-making ex husbands.

    Not chasing 30-year olds (I’m 40) because I’m looking for a woman whose kids are almost out of the house and I’m not interested in either seeing her through a MLC or hearing her biological clock tick. Further, and I’ve heard this from platonic female friends, the psychology of the SR’s leads to 40 Y.O. women perceiving their SR at a discount to reality.

    I’ve had two women I’m sleeping with tell me they loved me in the past week. Both are much higher SR than my ex. I probably could be playing around with more women, but, frankly, women are a 4th priority after my kids, my job, and my hobbies. I don’t see myself ever getting married again but might eventually like an LTR if I can find a woman worth my time.

    As for the ex…the man she left me for makes half what I do although alimony closes the gap; and (I’m told by people I’ve sent his pics to) is less attractive than I am. He has abandoned his youngest child to be with her (it started as a long distance relationship…he met her while he was traveling but still married to HIS ex). One of my children has told me the child does NOT want to live with her but is too young to make the decision.

    Anecdotally, as my marriage was unwinding, I was shocked at the number of guys who told me it happened to them – including two guys who are CEO millionaires. I heard the same story over and over again: Boy meets girl, boys loses girl, boy plays the field, boy gets tired of it, boy remarries better than what he had…and, I think it kind of makes sense: First wife married the guy before he had proven himself; in her mind SR’s are frozen on her wedding day; he gets betasized over time as he focuses on family and career. She overestimates hers and he underestimates his.

  36. “Athol, I don’t understand why I was trying to save things with X anymore. I know I’m going to miss her, but being completely honest, I don’t think I want her back anymore.”

    I F-ING LOVE IT.

    Not that they are getting divorced. That sucks. But I do love it when a man in this day and age came come through, pick himself up and have the last laugh.

    The second wave of danger is that these guys may be sorely tempted at some point to take her back out of nostalgia, pity, loyalty, misplaced sentimentality, whatever, when she crawls back after her new man or situation gives her the heave-ho (pun intended).

    This will be the true test of their resolve to build a new and better life for themselves. It’s tough to turn away the ex when you feel bad for what they did to themselves and you have those memories playing around in your head of when you first met, first Christmas, etc. Sigh.

    It’s tough to watch someone you care(d) about throw themselves in the toilet. It’s tough, but unless you signed a note for them saying it was okay for them to bang other dudes or run away from home, it ain’t your decision or responsibility for how it ultimately turns out for them. They are big grrrls. They can just go be strong, independent with some other guy (and your monthly monetary contribution “I don’t need a man!” Hehehe.).

    Don’t fall for it when they come back all teary eyed looking for a safe harbor in the storm they created. “But ZLX1, that is so harsh and unforgiving!?!” No it’s not. You can forgive them when you are ready to do so but you have no obligation whatsoever to restore them to the former position they held in your life, and I don’t think you should after they callously abdicated the position of being your wife.

    Why would you want to be married to a callous and trashy chick who shits all over you and your life? What was that you said? No good reason on Earth is there? Nope, there is not.

    When you make choices in this life sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your actions, even when it sucks. It’s called adulthood. Seems there are more than a few wives hopped up on Sex and the City episodes, Oprah, church sermons and women’s clit lit, that don’t understand that. (Don’t worry I don’t mean all wives. [NAWALT and all that.])

    All the self esteem in the world doesn’t change the cold hard reality that in this world there are consequences for actions. You are free to do whatever you wish, as long as you can live with it and with yourself afterwards.

    If a guy who worked for me stole money and then came back in a week and gave me what was left and really apologized, I might not press charges, but I sure as hell am not going to give him his job back or a key to the building. Duh.

    Well I feel bad that these situations turned south for these people. I do. But I don’t feel bad at all that these guys in question are going to come out okay and hopefully better than okay.

    The Lolz!

  37. Bristlecone says:

    @ Another Wife “I have seen wives divorce in middle age and choose to be alone. Most of these women have children that are grown and out of the house. There is no need to “find” a man to parent her children. Also, should the ex-wife choose to be with another person, they may not get re-married and instead enjoy a life unencumbered – the same as the divorced man.”

    That might be true for you, but I have not seen that to be the case with the majority of female friends I have.

  38. Another Wife says:

    Cadders – I disagree that dread is necessary for a passionate, vibrant, and mutually pleasurable sex life. Could dread be necessary for the majority of women?  Sure.  I don’t believe there have been studies with empirical evidence proving one or the other so I can’t state how necessary dread is for what percentage of women.

    Using anecdotal evidence :), for my husband and I, dread is not necessary or even wanted.  Dread comes from the fear of losing a partner to another.  Do I feel jealous at times?  Of course!  But I do not fear losing him.  Should he wish to leave, then…okay.  I know I will survive what would be a very painful experience.

    I think I have this view because both of us have been through difficult, extraordinary times.  Where death happens and you live through it.  After the storm passes, you realize that nothing in life is constant.  There are no guarantees.  Life is amazingly short. So, if wants something else?  Then he should go for it.

    Also, my desire is not kindled by dread.  It does react to Alpha.  I react to the danger I can feel he is capable of.  I react to the thought that there is nothing he cannot do.  THAT is sexy. And yes, I love the thought that he is mine. But I know that I can make it without him and he knows he can make it without me.  So everyday we chose to be together.

  39. Bristlecone says:

    @ A Wife “Dread comes from the fear of losing a partner to another. Do I feel jealous at times? Of course! But I do not fear losing him. Should he wish to leave, then…okay. I know I will survive what would be a very painful experience.”

    perhaps @Athol can come up with a definition of Dread Game. My understanding is that it is exactly what you are describing – and the opposite of taking your husband for granted. If so, you’re describing dread game.

  40. I too am not crying over my STBex. I filed for divorce this past summer after doing MAP activities starting in early 2012. The two or three months I had to deal with the logistics of getting her out of my life really put a crimp on getting certain needs met, but once she was out of the picture it got better.

    Only problem I have now is my hot blond 33 y.o. GF for the holidays moved with her job and I got caught without a spare in the wings. OK, I had a spare in the wings, but she’s not as hot and doesn’t live close either.

    I’ve got to get more plates spinning…..working on that.

  41. enlightened1 says:

    Tinker/ Cadders- Most of the men on this sight inspire me. It is so heartening that there are men who care enough to be working on their relationships and genuinely trying to salvage their marriages. It gives one hope when you realize these guys are on blogs, reading books, doing research, putting in the effort to stay married…… And then…. you read comments and instructions about how to dodge child support and nail younger babes. It gives one pause. I am genuinely happy for anyone (male or female) who has been in relationship, been dumped, heart broken and then discovers that they do have value; someone else of possibly higher value finds them attractive! That’s a happy ending. I like happy endings.
    That being said, I don’t personally know a single divorced woman who wanted a divorce (even the ones who filed). The ones I know worked like dogs trying to keep their marriages. None of the ones I know wanted to raise children alone in poverty without emotional, financial or spiritual support. None of them had affairs. None of them are in relationships or are even looking as it is a full time job raising children and putting their needs first. Perhaps I don’t run in a very racy crowd. So, I’m just saying if a women chooses, in fact prefers to be divorced, alone, raising children on the edge of poverty over being with you in a relationship, what does that say about you, the relationship or the marriage? This could take some introspection on the part of some of the men. And, I get it that this blog will attract a certain segment of the population; ones that are experiencing infidelity issues. And I get it that there are skanks out there who are abandoning their husbands and children for a “roll in the hay.” That’s not a very interesting question; they just need to be dumped.
    And love the book! Please buy it if you haven’t! Buy extra copies! I have given it to my son and a couple of the husbands of my friends (that had to be carefully orchestrated and was awkward!) ;)
    Cadders – keep your knickers on! No offense intended. What you see or hear depends mainly on what you are looking for.

  42. enlightened1 says:

    Another Wife – great post. I love to read intelligent, well thought out responses.

  43. @Enlightened1

    All the men’s fault?

    “That being said, I don’t personally know a single divorced woman who wanted a divorce (even the ones who filed). The ones I know worked like dogs trying to keep their marriages.”

    That makes no sense. How many divorced women do you know? Is it a statistically significant sample that would refute published divorced stats? No woman wanted a divorce, even the ones who filed you say? It sounds like they did. They filed for it. Do you know all these women well enough to be certain that you got the truthful reason why they filed?

    If they filed because the guy was an alcoholic, hitting them or cheating, then sure I can agree with that statement and think divorcing is the right thing. Something smells wrong with this statement though since the vast majority of guys do not do those things. That statement can be backed up with stats.

    If these women that you know filed because they were not “happy” or their hubby would not obey them, or they attended the Church of Oprah one time too many, or were cheered on by their recently divorced BFFs, (“Let’s be divorced together Becky, it will be like college again!!!”) then I don’t have much sympathy for their plight.

    “So, I’m just saying if a women chooses, in fact prefers to be divorced, alone, raising children on the edge of poverty over being with you in a relationship, what does that say about you, the relationship or the marriage?”

    A little man bashing thrown in for good measure eh?

    Well what does it say about her? These women you describe are not passive victims. She picked him. She chose to have kids with him. She chose to be married to him.

    Perhaps they are the ones that need some introspection. I did. I picked a real peach in my ex-wife. I did a lot of introspection on why I was attracted to her, what all went on during our whatever-ship, etc. because I didn’t want to make those mistakes again. She was a piece of crap, but I picked her so I had to figure out what was going on with me that I selected someone like her and stay married to her beyond the point of reason.

    “And then…. you read comments and instructions about how to dodge child support and nail younger babes. It gives one pause.”

    One guy in this thread “Remo” makes a comment about his thoughts on child support and now that is instruction to everyone else? Come on.

    As for nailing younger babes. I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but as a man it is extremely easy to do so if you even halfway have your shit together. If the criteria is “younger babe”, easy, done and done. If the criteria is “younger babe” that is hotter than the ex, easily done. If the criteria is “younger babe” that looks like a Victoria’s Secret model, then yes, that is quite a mountain to climb for 99% of men.

    But for a regular guy, post divorce, getting with a woman that is younger than his ex, “hotter” than her and having sex with said younger babe, is not some huge challenge like the space program. Keeping in mind relative to his SMV number and that youth adds it’s own intrinsic SMV value where a woman is concerned from the perspective of men.

    I have a rule of thumb, I simply will not consider any woman older than my ex-wife or the same age as her and she was six years younger than me to start with. “Why ZLX1 you pig! Why would you do that?”

    Because I can and my objective is to maximize my satisfaction for the time and resources invested in women. That satisfaction is maximized not based on her baking skills, her degrees or her position in HR, but on her youth, beauty, fun nature and tightness of tits and ass. Period. It’s called getting the most bang for my buck. The Lolz!

    Sure, I could put my time, money and energy into pursuing women in their forties (my age) but seriously, why the hell would I do that until I am in my mid-fifties? If you can give me good solid reasons for doing so, I will consider it with an open mind. I haven’t yet discovered any good reasons to do so on my own.

    Here are my base parameters:

    1. I’m not looking to get married again.
    2. I don’t want to move a woman into my house.
    3. I don’t want more kids.
    4. I prefer women with the energy and fitness level to keep up with me. I am very active and do a lot of outdoors things. I won’t date a woman who is not fit. I work hard to stay fit, I expect the same. The older you go looking with either sex, the harder it gets to find someone fit.
    5. I find that the further away from menopause a woman is, the less crabby and pleasant they tend to be as a general rule. They are also less hardened and jaded. Stated another way – more fun to actually be with outside the bedroom. Less baggage also. (Yes I know I have baggage, thank-you for reminding me.)
    6. I might consider an LTR again, but not 100% sold on the idea. Having too much fun now as is.

    “Yeah but ZLX1 those younger chicks you date want to get married and have kids. Isn’t that a problem?” Maybe it is, but it’s not my problem. I don’t tell them I’m looking to get married or have kids. I’m upfront about it all. That just makes them all the more determined to try to rope me in. The Lolz. If they wake up one day and don’t want to see me again because they figure out I was serious when I said those things, that’s up to them. Will that upset me? Depends. Sometimes yes, but life goes on and there are always other women. No really, there are.

    Are there hot, fit, fun 40-something women? There sure are and I know some too! There is also a lot of corn to be found in the average turd, but it doesn’t mean it’s worth the effort to dig it out when you can just buy fresher at the grocery. (Yeah that was gross and weird. I need more coffee.)

    Luvs Ya,

    ZLX1

  44. Great post. But the book. It will save your marriage. If I didn’t discover the MAP in April of 2012, there is no way I would be in a very happy situation with my wife today. Get your shit together, workout, be a badass, swat the shit tests away like flies and she’ll start following YOU around the house.

  45. Cadders – it is interesting you bring up the passion side of my previous post. I didn’t mention that there are difficulties in that area for us and it is one reason I don’t want another relationship – because I don’t want someone younger than me but I don’t want an older man due to reason of my own personal experience. I also know that, if my husband leaves me, there are specific issues he will take into any other relationship. But I know this is about the wife leaving, not the husband, and I don’t intend to do that so it’s moot.

    I’d bring it to the forum but I live in hope my husband will want to find this site in future.

  46. enlightened1 says:

    ZLX1-

    “All the men’s fault?” – That’s your response and the one thing you picked out in my post that wasn’t even implied?

    Therein lays the conundrum. I believe it is a cultural phenomenon that people obsess about “whose fault it is.” It’s rarely that simple or clear cut. I attribute it to our countries Judeo/Christian roots where it becomes imperative to assign fault because even if you’re not a Christian somewhere in there you’re worried about your fire insurance. I don’t believe anything in my post suggested it was the man’s fault. I was merely making a statement of observation. My question being; if a wife prefers to be alone, in poverty conditions, to living with you can you use that to ask yourself any questions? The answer might be; she’s a psycho bitch or the answer might be; there are things I could do/could have done to change my circumstances- how would that be interpreted as man bashing? Women could ask themselves the same question. But, this is a men’s forum geared toward men who are seeking solutions; not by any means the largest segment of relationship inquiry; hence my comment that the men on this blog inspire me.
    Of course my comment is not a “statistically significant sample that would refute stats”. Stats are not applicable to individuals. That was my point.
    How many divorced women do I know? I know four, counting myself. And yes I know them intimately. It was obviously anecdotal and more a reflection of the type of women who I have for friends. Two of my friends had husbands who left them and the children for other women. Both are beautiful, fit and were devoted mothers and wives (from what I could see). You nice guys out there just don’t get that yes, it does happen, probably because it just doesn’t make sense for you and those guys are NEVER going to be on MMSL . For one of my friends it was a surprise and they split instantly. For the other they had been to counseling for several years for his infidelities and this was the last one for her. Another friend was married for 23 years and worked on that marriage the entire time (christian). They have 7 children. Her ex-husband is a leader in the church, loves the spotlight, and has had affairs (the most during the divorce was with her prayer partner and “best” friend). I would call him a permanent Peter Pan figure. Did he want to stay married to her? You bet! She’s beautiful (think much younger Sophia Loren). She is one of the hardest working women I know. She makes him look great and she completes the picture of what is so important for him to believe about himself; big, happy, perfect looking family. Was he willing to be an active, functional, productive adult? Nope. She didn’t want the divorce. Just because she filed doesn’t mean she wanted it. What she wanted was a husband who valued her and wanted to be a father and have a relationship with her. He wanted to talk about it but he didn’t want to do it. She quit having sex with him about 6 months before she started the divorce. Yes, he complained but wasn’t remotely interested in trying to attract her. Wouldn’t read or look at MMSL blog or book but he spends a lot of time reading the bible and quoting submission scriptures. He has now switched to Christian single-parents support groups and getting attention from stupid divorced single Moms. So, do I think the divorce is his fault? I don’t know. I know he didn’t do anything for 23 years to have a marriage and when it got to crisis he didn’t do anything to prevent it and he could have. So, you could say she got a divorce because she wasn’t happy. That’s what she would tell you.

    I didn’t want a divorce either. But I filed, so using your logic it has to be my fault because I am the one who walked down to the courthouse and filed the papers.
    No, I don’t watch Oprah. In fact I may be one of only a handful of people in North America who has NEVER seen her show. I probably haven’t watched television for 18 years. As soon as I had children I never had the time and when I started to homeschool I REALLY didn’t have the time. In fact I rarely watch television at all; not for any philosophical bias’ but because I know I would get all slacked jawed and watch things that I would be appalled that I wasted my time doing later!
    You spent a lot of your post defending your choice of seeking younger women. My post encouraged and supported that yet you didn’t hear it. I can appreciate that you are honest with the women you date. At least the women is aware of what she is getting herself into and can manage her heart accordingly.
    The aspect of ‘Remo’s’ post that gave me pause is the combination of dodging child support, going to foreign countries where the women may be more vulnerable or naive and nailing hot younger babes”. I have two daughters: twenty and fifteen, so naïve beautiful women are a concern for me. My twenty year old has just recently gotten involved in a relationship with a 35 year old player. He knows all the right things to say and has taken advantage of her innocence. She is away at college right now and he has “allowed” her to “have her freedom” while she is at school. It’s really just his way of telling her that he will have sex with anyone he wants while she is away and he expects her to do the same. She is confused by this but is being faithful and assuring him that she would not. Does that sound like a man who is interested in a relationship that plans on honoring her? She thinks he is “the one” and I know from reading these forums that she is just a beautiful girl that fell for his talk. Thank you Roissy.
    I envy your ability and freedom to treat sex and dating as lightly as you do…I think. But, I do not have that luxury. I am raising 4 children alone and for me sex is an emotional, spiritual and soul investment that would take energy units away from my children. I do look forward to dating in the future after my children are raised. I am very active, I ride, I ski, I rock climb, I run half marathons, so the men who have asked me out are almost always younger than I. My quandary is I really don’t appreciate younger men. I enjoy skiing and rock climbing with them in my local mountaineering group but to be sexually interested in them I would have to be intellectually stimulated (therein lies one of the male/female differences!); and so far I haven’t met one that can keep up.
    For your own healing be aware that you are looking for neat little categories to stick women and men in so you can make sense of your situation and the craziness that happened to you. It limits your ability to understand nuances and prevents you from growing and allowing your heart to be engaged again at some point in the future. Your need to place blame or fault in a relationship will not serve you now in your healing or in the future when your heart is ready to risk again. And, you have a huge heart; I can hear it in your posts. Your wounds are still showing but I hear you making progress. The whole thing is bloody painful. It doesn’t matter whether you are a man or a woman who has been rejected; everyone on this blog has wounds. I certainly can’t fault you for your current “get mine” philosophy. There is more to intimacy and connection, but when you have been used and burned I can see where it could seem like a viable solution.

    Enlightened1 -

  47. @Enlightened1… Wow. I have no interest in taking sides in the comment debate that this blog posting has generated, for I can see validity in both sides, but I do want to chime in here w/ appropriate kudos to you for your civil, intelligent, and insightful responses to the challenges sent your way. IMHO you’ve lived up to your “Enlightened” moniker. Thanks for keeping the conversation on point.

  48. I’m not familiar with this expression “5 for 5″
    I googled it but all I can find is
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_by_five
    I guess this is what you mean. Is it common in US or is it a NZ thing?

  49. @Pegala – What Athol means w/ his comment “I’m 5 for 5 with the…” is that 5 out of 5 guys who were running the MAP and following his advice and whose marriages blew up anyway all ended up realizing that they are going to be OK. Basically, he is saying that the MAP process was a success in all 5 of those cases.

  50. Enlightened1,

    While I applaud your own FAP, once again you’ve just repeated your original stance of “All the men’s fault?” but just filling it out with more anecdotal information about awful husbands your friends married. Most men on forums like this have spent several months already asking themselves “Why?” and “What did I do wrong?” and worked very hard on their marriages. Most have come to the conclusion at long last they’ve done ” nothing that deserved a divorce” and have given it their best shot.

    It seems to be the generic defense women use when frivolous divorce is discussed, they up bring marriages where the husband was clearly abusive , drunk, addicted or a serial adulterer, when it’s clearly been stated this not the type of marriages we are talking about. I don’t know any man that would not agree in those circumstances divorce is justified if the husband is not willing to seek treatment or change his ways. In the marriages we are talking about here, the men have not committed any of the above and have made a great effort to save their marriages.

  51. I said in my prior post that if a guy (or gal) is cheating, addicted to drugs or alcohol or hitting people then it is 100% legitimate to divorce him (or her), if that is the desired course of action. I don’t think anyone should tolerate staying in a situation like that.

    There’s no need to defend dating younger women. It’s perfectly natural, indeed preferred almost universally by all men. I was more stating that it is completely realistic for a newly divorced man (who has his act together) to do so, and that personally I really like it. Ze Lolz! As I said before, I’m not happy about getting divorced but I’m very happy about not being married to that woman.

    I don’t treat any of the women I see like crap or cruelly even if I am rather cavalier about the whatever-ship we are engaging in at the time. Trust me in that they know full well what they are getting involved with and they don’t mind a bit. They are doing it of their own freewill because they like it and they are getting something that they value out of it or they wouldn’t be doing it. The tingles…oh my! I am not hypnotizing anyone.

    I’m not trying to fit women into any specific categories, people aren’t that neat and tidy. I do however exercise a great deal of judgement over whether or not someone I’ve met is going to be a net plus or minus and potentially fit with my lifestyle or wants.

    Not from the standpoint of “Will this woman make a great wife and mother?” I’m not interested in that so it doesn’t matter, but does she pass my boner test?, is she fun to spend time with and not dangerously crazy or suffering a psychiatric condition? Does she stay away from drugs and criminal activity? Is she lying about being single? (That happens more than you’d think.) That’s a good start to things.

    There is nothing wrong with enjoying women on your terms. It only irritates women when a man does so because those terms usually mean he won’t be pinned down.

    Sex and pretty women are some of the good things in life. Why wouldn’t I want to enjoy them as a reward to myself for the hard work I put in on myself, my career, etc.?

    Speaking of which…time to get back to it.

    ZLX1

  52. This is why self improvement should be the end goal, not necessarily more sex or a better marriage. A better marriage and more sex should be the consequence of achieving your goal, but if it isn’t, you are certainly well positioned for whatever life brings you.

  53. ZLX1
    January 29 @ 8:07: “…That makes no sense. How many divorced women do you know? Is it a statistically significant sample that would refute published divorced stats? No woman wanted a divorce, even the ones who filed you say? It sounds like they did. They filed for it. Do you know all these women well enough to be certain that you got the truthful reason why they filed?”

    How many times have you known women to be truthful, when it wasn’t in their best interest? Modern Women are proven unapologetic liars — witness how easily they make false accusations of Domestic Violence, abuse, rape, etc. They know that they can get away with lying, because they are so rarely held accountable for it.

    Until the day that women are held to the same standards for truthfulness, loyalty, and honesty as men are, don’t believe a thing that women say, or the NAWALT argument that they love to trot out. Instead, WATCH WHAT THEY DO!
    Until women are being punished the same as men are for perjury/lying under oath, or for making false statements and accusations, ALWAYS assume that they are lying, dishonest, disloyal, unfaithful, amoral, and have absolutely no sense of personal honor whatsoever.
    Because they have proven that is what they will do.

  54. enlightened1 says:

    Chakotay-
    Thank you. I try to stay on the high side. It’s not always easy with all these wounded bears raging around licking their wounds! But, I’m changing the moniker; your comment convinced me! I think it must sound like I think I’m some ascended Zen Master or something. In reality it was just a comparison of where I was in my delusion and where I am now. It’s been a slowwww epiphany (if that’s not a contradiction!). I started about 5 years ago challenging Christian concepts of relationship and thinking outside the box (after my divorce) and really didn’t have any support for my thoughts until I started reading Athol’s blog about 2 years ago. I only post on the ALPHA Game blog and DALROCK when my self esteem and righteous indignation is really high and my tolerance for legalism really low!! ;) I get slaughtered. It’s really helpful as I am getting a tougher skin. :)

  55. @Take The Red Pill

    “Until women are being punished the same as men are for perjury/lying under oath, or for making false statements and accusations, ALWAYS assume that they are lying, dishonest, disloyal, unfaithful, amoral, and have absolutely no sense of personal honor whatsoever.
    Because they have proven that is what they will do.”

    I hear you. I understand where you are coming from.

    I used to think a lot like that when I was in my really mad at the world, all women suck, he-man woman hating, immediate post divorce – bleh thing I was doing. Goodness me, oh my, when I look back at some of the things I have posted in the past, (and occasionally still do) I have to say to myself. “ZLX1, you magnificent bastard! What the hell were you ranting on about you handsome, angry man?” Lolz.

    The thing is, in a broader context yes there are a lot of social issues, bad behavioral issues and grrrl power things that are flowing through this day and age that are very negative for men that you touch upon. On the micro – my immediate world level – yep, they affect me, but I’ve come to terms with women of today for what they are, women of today.

    Some are better than others (a lot better) some are worse than others, (a lot worse), and most are just kind of in-between. Good and bad points. I never fool myself into thinking that any one of them is a goddess, angel, completely trustworthy, or anything else unrealistic; positive or negative. We’re all a bunch of selfish bastards and bastardettes in our own ways aren’t we?

    Instead of getting upset at the things women say or do, I just don’t take them all that seriously. I find myself laughing more than fuming. All the fuming and being mad at the world or mad at women was really just burning up energy better used elsewhere and detracting from my enjoyment of things.

    There is a time and place for it, then it’s time to let it go as you are able, although there are a couple of women I’m pretty darned sure I will be forever pissed at in some way. Hehe.

    These days I never expect women to think or act like men would in any given situation, which is a mistake and the source of much frustration for many. I expect them to say and do silly girl things. I expect them to do things I consider nonsensical and foolish to my male brain.

    They expect me to say and do “jerky” guy things that make little sense to them. It would seem we like it that way. Instead of it being a source of constant grinding anger or consternation, it’s a source of enjoyment if approached with the right perspective. The Yin and the Yang of it all, with my wang in the middle of it all. (couldn’t resist)

    I could have willed myself to stay mad forever, (and occasionally I have a fit or two) or I could just accept the world for what it is and enjoy it as it is. That’s kind of where I’m heading these days and with all this…

    There is taking the red pill and unplugging and seeing things as they are. Then you have to do something with that. The first thing many guys will likely do with that new understanding is to be really pissed off. I think a very positive place to work towards is not being mad that the world is different than you were led to believe, but learning to work within it and use your new understanding for your positive enjoyment.

    You were running a race with a backpack on. Someone or something happened that you were allowed to take your backpack off and have a fair understanding of the setup.

    The truth of things, though initially anger inducing because it requires you to rethink a lot of concepts you thought were “right” or “just”, or you feel “tricked”, is actually your source of liberation. It’s a path to a greater level of personal enjoyment than you could have achieved before because now you’re conscious of the options and risks. “The truth will set your free” is very fitting.

    For example, when I think back on my ex-wife and former life, I’m like “Wow, I’m actually glad that blew up in many ways. I could have been unknowingly stuck with her forever!” I had to discover some painful truths and endure some pretty bad things for that liberation to come about. In the end it was worth the price of admission.

    I still might be able to change the whole world though. I don’t know for sure, but I’m trying to do it one single mommy / divorcee / or never been married, wanna have kids right now damn-it! woman at a time. My penis. It soothes their troubled spirits. The LoLZ!!!

    ZLX1

  56. I didn’t want a divorce either. But I filed, so using your logic it has to be my fault because I am the one who walked down to the courthouse and filed the papers.

    You’re confusing absolute want with relative want. You wanted a divorce more than you wanted the marriage in which you found yourself. The men are referring to relative want here. If you had preferred the existing marriage to the divorce, you would not have filed.

    Also, you’re making a solipsistic mistake. Five divorces are irrelevant when viewed against the tens of thousands that take place annually. You’re basically flipping a coin five times and concluding, on that basis, that it has heads on both sides.

    I get slaughtered. It’s really helpful as I am getting a tougher skin. :)

    Good for you. That is how you improve. I estimate that when I did martial arts, I got knocked down about 200 times before I managed to flatten anyone else.

  57. The biggest fear in life for some, including myself, is being in a situation where I am in my late 40′s and not meshing with my wife anymore. I do love her very much but sometimes I wonder how my life would have been without her. I guess reading this post and Mike’s comment (the first guy) really made me realize how possible a D could be and how devastating it would make me feel. I can’t live my life in fear though and must face the facts that if it doesn’t work out, there is life after a divorce. It was interesting reading all these comments. I will check back in a little while to read more.

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