How To Fair Warning a Husband That Doesn’t Listen (Before Things Are Too Late To Fix)

One of the common beliefs in the Manosphere is that men are calm, rational, thoughtful creatures, and that women are emotionally driven and irrational. The common word used to describe the pseudo rational verbiage to support the decisions of an emotionally irrational mindset is called The Female Rationalization Hamster. It’s where women manufacture all the crazy bitch parts of their personality.

It really is true. Women have a large part of their brains devoted to all these hamstering thoughts. It’s called a Neo-Cortex… which is obviously quite confusingly the same place men do all their calm, rational, thoughtful thinking too. I might have noticed it before now myself, except my hamster told me not to look too hard and not worry about it, because it probably makes better sense as a paradox.


Men clearly, just as women do, have massive hamsters capable of the most amazing rationalizing nonsense you can imagine. As soon as a guy gets a touch of Oneitis for a girl, his mind spins an endless whirlpool of her charms and finds reasons to love her even more. The guy that circles the hot girl as her Beta Orbiter, has a constant internal chatter… “Hovering about her forever and masturbating in secret is a fantastic plan that will pay off eventually.”

That whole thing where Nice Guys spin up covert contracts in their mind that their wife has no idea about? That whole contract was spun up into existence during a conversation between him and his hamster. “If I just do even more nice things for her, then she’ll have to fuck me won’t she!”  “That’s exactly right!” said the hamster, “Pure genius!”

Anyone who has ever said, “No. I know my wife really well, she would never cheat on me”…. squeaky squeak squeakum. I’m totally serious on this one. There are some men who even in the face of some pretty blunt evidence, deny that their wife is involved with other men. As in really blunt evidence. As in “Dude, she left in a huff for three nights, she’s on the pill but there’s an empty box of condoms in her car, there’s thousands of text messages to a number you don’t know.”

Or how about the standard line of guys saying to themselves… “Look I know she’s married, she’s the one that wants to cheat on her husband. If I don’t sleep with her, some other guy will anyway.”  “Exactly,” said the hamster, “you’re not a douchebag at all. In fact, you’re probably stabilizing the marriage and doing the husband a favor!”

And the most important one of all… “Only women have hamsters, men are the rational ones.”  “Exactly!” said the hamster, “you can see on the MRI the tiny little walnut size of the female brain, and when you put a male in the MRI scanner… well… it’s just supermassive in comparison. Obviously two completely separate branches of evolution took place here.”

 So… here’s where the husband’s hamster screws up the marriage…. and why the wife screws up her communication to the husband.

The only reason that really motivates a man to have an interest in a woman is sexual. I realize I’m painting with a broad brush here, I’m sure all you ladies reading have wonderful appealing personalities and whatever else it is you think you bring to the table. Trust me… your wonderful charming man that’s great with the kids… he married you for your pussy and that’s about it.

As long as he’s getting pussy from you… his hamster tells him he’s in a good relationship. Things are going great.

Now this is where the wives come in and screw it all up. Women talk about everything. Non stop. Endlessly. Continuously. Some of it’s good stuff, some of it’s bad stuff, there’s a lot of drama, a lot of emotion in there too. The wives Fitness Test and Loyalty Test and whine and nag and complain and recycle arguments from twelve years ago. Then they bring up something that happened five years ago, to another couple she knows, applies their situation to your relationship as a hypothetical scenario, which you fail to take seriously enough, which ruins a perfectly good ride home from her mother’s house.

After a few years of marriage, most men start experiencing the words coming out of their wife’s mouth as of form of white noise. It’s all just talk.

And there’s still sex once in a while, so… his hamster tells him he’s in a good relationship. Things are going great.

Then something happens with the wife and she finally stops being a whiny bitch and cuts back on the white noise.

And there’s still sex once in a while AND she’s stopped complaining, so… his hamster tells him he’s in a really awesome relationship. It’s never been this good.

Then on a perfectly normal Tuesday, everything explodes. Divorce papers / affair discovery / Restraining Order / she flees with the kids / something else really beyond the pale. Cue up the stunned and enraged husband…. “WWWHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!!?!!?!?!?!?”  “Exactly.” said the hamster shaking with liquid anger, “after everything he’s done for you over all these years. Suddenly I see you for the evil gold digging hypergamous whore that you are!” 

For some reason I always hear the male hamster as being voiced by Steve Urkel. Try it. Say that line in your head in Urkel’s voice. “Why Laura… After everything I’ve done for you over all these years. Suddenly I see you for the evil gold digging hypergamous whore that you are!”

So ladies. Bless your hearts. I get that you were unhappy about things, but you were simply talking to a man you knew wasn’t listening to you. Then periodically you’d give him sex, and tell him by your actions that things were still okay. Then you nuked the entire relationship into the ground by you doing something totally over the top, and instead of trying to fix a relationship with your orginial problem set, now you’ve added a second set of issues and things are much worse.

So the real question is what works to get through to a husband that things are really NOT going well in the relationship. That you have a genuine, major and reasonable complaint that must be addressed. I’m not talking about dumb stuff like “The kitchen cabinets need refinishing”, I’m talking about stuff like, “It’s been five years of erectile dysfunction”, “We’re losing the house”, “You’re addicted to gambling.”

Well what does work are the really serious stuff like – divorce papers / affair discovery / Restraining Order / she flees with the kids / something else really beyond the pale. But those are all problematic and damaging… though do notice that they are all actions as opposed to talkSaying “I want a divorce” carries next to no weight compared to being handed actual divorce paperwork to sign. 

Some suggestions….

(1)  Separate the bedrooms.

(2) Remove your wedding rings.

(3)  Ask him to move out.

(4) Tell him that you are not in love with him anymore.

(5) Lock him 100% out of your online presence and communication devices.

(6) Have either his father or your father tell him you’re on the verge of leaving him. (Authority figure + not a “white noise” female talking)

(7) Tell him you are starting to consider sex with other men.

(8) Shouting out for myself, buy him the Primer and tell him to join the forum.

(Related post:

(9) Start running your own MAP and immediately hitting the gym and looking better.

(10) Investigate your state’s divorce / alimony / child support laws, and figure out the math on what he’d be likely to have to pay, based on a 50/50 custody agreement and non-combative parting of the ways. Give him the number.

I would also recommend doing several of those options in one heavy hitting strike. Your goal is to hit him so hard, that it bypasses his hamster and makes him sit up and take it seriously. Yet also that it’s a non-fatal blow that doesn’t then create additional problems to clean up. He’s meant to feel exactly like he heard a gunshot and felt the whistle of the bullet go right by his head. He’s meant to be freaked the hell out and start going into panic mode.

After that? Well I don’t know exactly what happens. He might pull his shit together, he might not. All I can say is most husbands when push comes to shove, really do want to fix things with their wife rather than call it quits… the odds of that being much better if she keeps the moral high-ground and he can see she was warning him out of loyalty and love, rather than cutting and running to another guy.

Men really do love their women.



  1. @Athol: “… the odds of that being much better if she keeps the moral high-ground”

    Of the 10 suggestions you gave, exactly which ones represent keeping the moral high ground?

  2. SingleGirl says:

    I guess when a woman is crying and snotting and debasing herself year after year for 15 years, begging for the sex situation to change because once a month or once every 2-3 months isn’t enough…seeing her in that state is just hamstered as how? Dramatic? Because this girl walked out the door and the begging and pleading after the decision was made…I’m sorry. You didn’t care for 15 years, seeing me in that humiliated state, why should I care now? If I had done any of those things, it would not even have registered because he obviously didn’t care enough when he looked me in the eye as I was at my lowest, begging him to tell me “what is wrong with me??” By the way, I directly tried #7. Actually, I asked his permission to have sex with someone else, so he would be off the hook. “You’re my wife.” My solution to THAT answer was filing papers.

    And I think asking a man to move out is a pretty nuclear solution, to be honest.

  3. SingleGirl says:

    Oh, and I guess my point is that if a man is oblivious to the pain and anguish of his wife, where his hamster or whatever overrides his compassion and love and empathy, the things you listed, they’re sort of pointless. Well, maybe not pointless. If he’s about status and being worried that people will judge him for his wife leaving him, he might fake it for a while to save face in front of others.

  4. enlightened1 says:

    You’re confusing morality with your own religious dogma. All of the options above are consequences to behavior; can’t think of a ‘moral high ground’ much higher than that.

  5. @enlightened1-
    No, consequences to actions are more/less automatic and amoral. That suggests your argument is that Athol made a poor word choice. I agree.

    So Athol spends a dozen paragraphs telling us the evils of the male hamster. Fine, so far, I doubt that’s news to anyone.

    But after extolling the evils of the male hamster he then proceeds to strap a rocket booster to the female hamster and encourages her to bust up her family and hurt her husband and children as much as possible. If that’s “moral” then I’ll gladly stick with my “religious dogma”.

    Just to be clear, Athol’s problem is that he skipped like oh, EIGHT DOZEN STEPS in between “I’ve been nagging him and he won’t listen” and went straight to “just divorce the loser, it’s all his fault anyway”. As if modern women need *any* encouragement to go there. Athol just gave them permission, the hamster is grinning ear-to-ear, and now a prominent MRA website fully endorses a core item of the feminist agenda (divorce him for cash and prizes!). Good work.

    It is news to me that I’m a prominent MRA website.

  6. Amazing stuff if your over 35, married, and after swallowing the red pill you have decided she has enough value to convince yourself to try to recoup the sunk cost. (obvious blog demographic)

    Over/under 35 and unmarried (never married/divorced)? Realize that 95% of women are unmarriageable in 2013 USA and you must, must, must work on filtering for the unicorn.

    Or just meet a girl, buy her a house, give her half your shit, and let that hamster motivate you right into an emotional stump grinder where you might emerge with a stump and no arterial bleeding.

  7. I get this, my husband hates apple crisp but loves apple pie, it doesn’t make any sense to me…must be the male hamster in action. ;)

  8. @Michael – you would seriously prefer women to just cheat / file for divorce / abduct the kids … as opposed to sending him clear messages of impending doom by her actions as I’ve suggested.

    If you have a way to make men understand their situation without resorting to that, please start your own website and start spreading that message. The need is tremendous and you could probably make a shit ton of money. I’m at a fucking loss why you’re refusing to tell anyone how to fix the communication problem between men and women, when you so clearly have the answer and a better solution than I’ve managed to offer.

    Otherwise, get off MMSL.

  9. “Bless your hearts.”

    Oh. I see what you did there. ;)

    Y’all, Athol knows what he’s talking about. It happens over and over again on the forums. “I’m sexing my man up and making myself look hot, and I told him I’m unhappy, but he thinks everything is fine!” Well duh. He’s getting all the sex he wants with a hot woman.

    Over and over again, the only thing that’s worked is threatening to leave or threatening find someone on the side. Over and over and over. I’d imagine he gets a crapload more email from women who never touch the forum, and the emails all say the same.

    He’s not just making shit up.

  10. So I’m guessing that the 38 year old woman is going to be single for the rest of her life. Oh well, that’s her choice, just like it was her choice to trap her ex-husband. Anyway, it’s quite sad that when firmly instructed to “find a job loser” in a major Depression he failed to perform. The trapped rat has acted in an entirely surprising way that could not be predicted with near certainty.

    What Athol means by “past the point of no return” is “past the point making threats is going to work”. And I would agree, once a man no longer desires to sleep with his treacherous wife, threats are likely to be explosive.

    Especially when the wife dares threaten to end the marriage she forced him to enter into. And before the rambling insanity starts, I “choose” to refuse responsibility when someone else deliberately deceives me. I choose this because I want to. There, it is done. American men are such little girls.

    So, if positive reinforcement works on women, then why doesn’t it work on men? Because “sex” and “pretty” is the absolute maximum a woman can go to?

    I said earlier, beauty and loyalty and I was hardly stating anything not known for thousands of years.

    On the other hand, now that he is free of his wife, the man will hopefully be able to move on. It is likely that his festering hatred at having to deal with her presence day in and day out turned the near impossible task of finding a job with his useless degree and long-term unemployement into just plain impossible.

    So heh, good for him, eh?

  11. Jacob Ian Stalk says:

    “He’s not just making shit up.”

    Like Roissy, Athol is a great observer of human animal behaviour and a wise interpreter of what he sees. In other words he, like Roissy, write about the beahavioural elements in human nature that are common to all of us – the lowest common denominator, if you like. If you want to live like a moral serf, always at the command of your master, then follow the advice of these men. However, if you want to be master of your own future and live according to the highest ideals to which a human being can aspire then look for more nutritious fare than this. Try these for a start. They’ll tell you all you need to know about the human animal and the petty tyranny of sexual relationship.

    No offence, Mr & Mrs Kay. Interesting blog, for what it is.

  12. Apolitical says:


    To be fair women hate confrontation, but they do indeed tell you what’s bothering them, but it’s usually in such an abstract manner that you don’t realize until after the divorce. In every relationship where I was dumped I could see in retrospect where she attempted to communicate with me, but boy was it abstract. I’ll even throw Athol a star trek bone. Remember the episode where Picard was forced to learn the language of that alien race that only spoke in metaphors? Well that’s how, most, women attempt to communicate their issues to men. They desperately need someone to tell them how it works. It looks like Athol may be looking at that as a growth market.

    That’s the trouble though. Women miscommunicate to men, because they assume men are listening like a woman does. They just don’t. Yet a man getting the traditional “whack upside the head” usually gets it fairly quickly. Then he can make changes before it’s too late.

  13. “Trust me… your wonderful charming man that’s great with the kids… he married you for your pussy and that’s about it.”

    I married my wife for more than her “pussy.” If that’s all she had to offer, she wouldn’t have achieved her position as my wife. What a stupid thing for you to say. I’ll spare your blog my presence in the future. You’re welcome.

    If she didn’t have a vagina would you have married her?

  14. enlightened1 says:

    Yeh, I was scratching my head over the MRA reference.

    @Michael – Problem #1: You just don’t make sense; no coherent sentences. You so missed the entire point of the post as you completely freaked at the word “fault”; that’s where your dogma is leaking through. I can understand that when you’re a christian it’s rather unsettling to hear that your divorce could be your “fault” when your fire insurance depends on the premise that because your wife filed for a divorce it was her “fault.” But your inability to see that the post is about getting your spouses attention before it’s too late reveals that you are a casualty of not taking the masculine responsibility for your life and the outcomes. You make me sad for your blindness as you think marriage = obligation, and action= fault. Please try a little introspection and entertain the idea that the steps outlined above could actually save a relationship and in turn, the individuals in the relationship. I can tell you from personal experience that I went the EIGHT DOZEN steps route that you suggested Athol missed: talking, cajoling, counseling, reasoning, pleading, counseling, begging, nagging and counseling; spending over 15 years in the process… WAITING. I wish Athol had been around then to tell me there’s just talking and action; nothing in between. A far simpler, less traumatic approach is clear, strong, action based communication based on “this behavior is not acceptable and it is relationship destroying”. Then, see if he scrambles to fix the behavior because he has value for the you and the relationship or chooses to tune out, be shocked at the outcome and then roll around in male collective blame and self pity.
    Great post Athol.

  15. Shadow_Nirvana says:

    Hi Athol, very informative post.

    I’ve finished reading “Women’s Infidelity 1&2″ and it sort of explains why women nag, then stop nagging and act like everything’s okay, then nuke the relationship. The author explains it in a way that I think every man should understand.

    An excerpt from the book about this topic(sorry it’s a bit long)

    “To put it simply, males tend to think of love as a commitment, whereas females think of love as a feeling.3 Therefore, females tend to leave their relationships once the feeling is gone. Men often have a hard time understanding how women can be in love with them one day and suddenly out of love with them and in love with someone else the next. However, with women this isn’t uncommon at all because feelings come and go.
    For example, when a woman tells a man how she feels and the man disregards what she says, women seldom take any obvious action. This is one of the main reasons men mistakenly think that their wives are just emotional or that they like to complain. Men don’t realize that women only appear not to be taking action. Women don’t like to end relationships when they still have feelings for men so they wait until their feelings die. However, men have no idea that women do this. On the contrary, men think their wives and girlfriends actually get over many of the things that they’ve been complaining about, when in fact the women are just waiting until they no longer care. Women think men are clueless for not “getting” this about them. They think men are clueless for thinking that women will just put up with not getting what they want. In fact, this is often how women get revenge in their relationships—they console themselves with the idea that one day they’ll feel nothing.

    Many men in your husband’s situation think that their wives are going to get over whatever it is that’s causing their unhappiness. They think their wives will just do what they’ve always done: get mad, get over it, and go back to being loving toward them. Most men have no idea that over the years their wives have been letting their feelings die. This is what I meant when I said that women don’t tell the whole truth. In actuality it would be more accurate to say that women avoid taking the necessary steps to resolve their relationship problems. Women avoid taking those steps because they are afraid of losing their relationship prior to losing their feelings.

    Because men view love as a commitment, they often avoid dealing with problems in their relationships in order to preserve their relationships. Because women view love as a feeling they often avoid dealing with problems in their relationships in order to preserve their feelings. Women know that if their needs go unmet their feelings will eventually go away naturally, so they let their feelings die gradually while they are still in their relationships. This way they can keep the high “in love” feeling for as long as possible, and often this allows them to avoid the pain of ending the relationship altogether.”

    TL:DR : Men, when she stops nagging, that means she’s letting it fester, she thinks avoiding the issue will preserve her feelings, but it won’t. You are thinking avoiding the issue is going to preserve your relationship, but it’s not(obviously with above %50 divorce rates that should be obvious.) Unless you start taking reponsibility for those issue and try to defuse them and not let them grow from small bricks into walls between you, you will be losing your relationship. Period. And you will be crying to your mates at the pub about what a heartless b!tch she is to d such a thing to you.

  16. @Athol Kay says: “@Michael – you would seriously prefer women to just cheat / file for divorce / abduct the kids … as opposed to sending him clear messages of impending doom by her actions as I’ve suggested.”

    Athol, I said nothing of the sort. That is, however, what you told her to do (more correctly, that’s how she will end up *taking* the advice in many/most cases, regardless that you meant it as a tool to fix the marriage. When it comes to divorce-him-for-cash-and-prices women need no encouragement. They’re already doing everything you said – and that’s the problem, not the solution. So did you really intend to give her the same advice she’s already getting from all her happy-divorcee friends?)

    Also, at what point did you even acknowledge the possibility that *she* is doing lots of things in the marriage that are feeding/driving his bad behaviors? Shouldn’t she clean up her own act at least in parallel with expecting same of him? Did anyone do a “root cause” analysis on this relationship’s problems? Or did we just take her word for it all? Surely it is possible that the women wouldn’t tell you everything destructive they’re doing, in the same way men don’t. We all have that hamster.

    I am attempting to point out that the 10 suggestions given are nuclear, are being given to people who already have a twitchy finger on the launch button, and are very dangerous especially when given from afar.

    @Athol: “Otherwise, get off MMSL.”
    If this is the protocol for dealing with people who disagree, I will gladly obey. Your call.

  17. @Michael – Did anyone do a “root cause” analysis on this relationship’s problems? Or did we just take her word for it all? Surely it is possible that the women wouldn’t tell you everything destructive they’re doing, in the same way men don’t.

    Are you even remotely familar with my work and what forum does routinely?

  18. @Michael,
    Dude, the stuff Athol supposedly “Told” women “cheat/file for divorce… women are doing this EVERY DAY! IT’S COMMON KNOWLEDGE!

    The point is, as men we are supposed to be “the man”, the “leader”. It’s our responsibility to accept the truth and act on it. Women aren’t programmed that way so it’s a waste of time to tell them to do the same. I’ve just figured this out in the last year or so and trying to save my marriage of 20 years. I’m not sure I’m gonna pull it off, might be too late? But I’ll tell you this:
    It certainly isn’t making things worse.

  19. Johan Grå says:

    I get what you are saying but I feel sad reading it. You were writing with empathy for men. That will of course make it kind of one-sided but it is a side sorely missing in the literature. Now you are not. The world is already abundant with people motivating women to think of men as failures in relationship. You gave men hope. I hope you will continue doing so, but your two last posts makes me uncertain.

    BTW – You would probably like reading about EFT-C by Sue Johnson. Couple Therapy based on attachment theory. They see the same pattern you are describing. Women complaining because the feel lonely, suddenly they stop which men interpret as an improvement but it really is a phase in the grief process when you are letting go of the emotional bond.

  20. Kansas Fighter says:

    I am not sure why the most obvious tactic was left off the list. That being to “Deny Sex”. Some of the items listed imply or indirectly lead to denying sex, like separate bedrooms. However that is passive aggressive behavior on the sex front. If passive aggressive is the method then I would suggest:

    1) Insist he wears a condom (even if you regularly use other means of birth control) because he’s “icky”.
    2) Don’t let him control intercourse at all. You pick the position and how long things last.
    3) Pick a position where he cannot thrust all the way in.
    4) Insist he use lubricant because he doesn’t get you wet.
    5) Ask him if he’s “done yet”.
    6) No foreplay, just lie there like a blow-up doll.
    7) Refuse to kiss him, in the mouth or anywhere else.

    My wife inadvertently did something like this to me. She told me years ago that she could live without sex. That got my attention. We discussed this today because of this blog post. I think men are stereotypically interested in sex with most any woman. Thus we are generally always interested in sex. Woman however are only interested in sex with someone they have a deeper relationship with. Then they become interested in sex with that person.

  21. My first post here, after weeks of lurking.

    “if she keeps the moral high-ground…” This is so wrong at so many levels. The moment “higher” or “lower” moral grounds come into the picture, the integrity of the man in question is out of the window, ergo, the relationship is already dead.

  22. @Athol Kay says: “Are you even remotely familar with my work and what forum does routinely?”

    Yes, sir. I’ve been reading MMSL (not every post) for about 3 years now.

    In the previous post you basically admitted you’ve been getting duped by men who didn’t tell you everything and you have therefore unwittingly given sub-optimal advice. You then proceed to say that relationship problems are all men’s fault, which would logically preclude any fault on the women’s part. And in this post you gave no indication that you have made any attempt to get to the bottom of what *both* the man and woman are doing that is wrecking the relationship. No where did you say you did everything up to the “ok lady, you’ve made real progress on cleaning up your act, but hubby just isn’t getting it, we better move to the next phase”. The takeaway is “nagging hasn’t worked, go nuclear”.

    Please tell me what I missed.

  23. @Michael
    You missed what’s been happening behind the scenes on the forum. To be fair, I get what you’re saying. An outsider reading this with no context is probably having the same misunderstanding you are.

    On the forum, one of the most difficult problems is what to do when the wife finds MMSL first. She reads the book, and it clicks. The problems in her marriage suddenly make sense, and she knows now what she and her husband need to do to fix it. Except, now what? MMSL is predicated on the husband becoming a leader and inspiring his wife to follow him. How do you lead a man into leadership? Over and over again we see the wife turning up saying she read the book, she gave it to her husband, she’s been working on herself, she’s been sexing him up, she’s been acting submissive, and she’s going crazy because he won’t step up and take the helm. Over and over again the man has to be shocked into realizing his wife is serious, and he needs to take action on this.

    That is where this post is coming from. When men find MMSL first, they take action and their wives follow. But most of the time, our husbands don’t follow our action if wives find it first. As Athol said, if the home life is good, they’re getting sex all the time, and their wife stops nagging, why would they need to change anything? I can’t tell you how frustrating we women find it that we have to do or say something drastic to get his attention. Why can’t our good behavior inspire him? Why can’t daily sex make him step up? Why do we have to cut him off or threaten to leave before he gets it? But over and over again, that is the thing that finally works.

  24. Shadow_Nirvana says:

    Hey, Michael.

    Some things I realized when listening to other men’s relationship troubles:
    1-They’ve too much blind trust(there is above %50 divorce rates and %30-40 female infidelity rate but she will never do it/it will never happen to us.) This is just too much of a slippery slope leading to apathy.
    2-They’re too conflict-avoidant: Basically failing Sh!t tests by giving a woman whatever she wants, because their fear of losing her is overpowering.
    3-They fail to read between the lines: Now this can be read both ways. Women do communicate very abstractly. They think men will understand them because they understand themselves. Men fail to read this abstract communication and miss really important signs that she’s trying to give him. I cannot change women, so I cannot change how women communicate. What can I change? Myself and how I decipher womenspeak. Complaining about women will get me absolutely nowhere.
    4-They fail to own their own sh!t: Basically “the elephant in the room” post.

    These are all really bad stuff that destroy the marriage from the male side. I’m not saying men are to blame for all relationship troubles, but come on, do you think that if men cleaned up their own act, would women be allowed to be entitled, selfish, cake-eating princesses they are today?

  25. @Shadow_Nirvana says: “I’m not saying men are to blame for all relationship troubles,…”
    Athol did. And it’s observably false.

    “… but come on, do you think that if men cleaned up their own act, would women be allowed to be entitled, selfish, cake-eating princesses they are today?”

    Your wording is odd: “allowed to be”. Who is to stop them?
    But yes, I do think a lot of them would still be “entitled, selfish, cake-eating princesses” and a few would only get worse. It’s not necessarily their fault, in a sense, this is what our culture has taught them to be from birth. And they own all the major cultural institutions (media, education, government) who continually reinforce the feminist entitlement/me-me-me message. So in many cases it will take a lot more than just hubby turning over a new leaf to blast out years of indoctrination. And a few are utterly un-salvageable as wife material (which is why the men’s MAP has has its own nuclear option, no doubt).

  26. @Michael – do you realize I’ve been polling the women to find out what actually worked to get a husbands attention?

    If you have an actual plan that works to get a husbands attention before things go critical mass, you need to state it and give an alternative to the plan I’ve laid out here.

    Otherwise you’ve been spouting nothing but the stock knee-jerk MRA howling that has saved precisely no ones marriage.

  27. Your wording is odd: “allowed to be”. Who is to stop them?
    Their men, Michael. Their men are to stop them when they are displaying unnaceptable behaviour, since they are the Captains.
    I’m sorry to say that, but your comments read like you’re either not very good at interpreting what you read or you didn’t really read all that much from the blog/forum.

  28. Jack Schitz says:

    I think the disconnect here results from a lack of true understanding of the situation by both parties.

    One one side pre-red pill guys are fed a load of crap on what it is that women want in a relationship (and here I’m not talking about severe cases of neglect – although sometimes that can even be a plus in a dark triad sense), so they either have no idea that there may be a problem or how to fix the problem when they finally recognize that there is something there. Accordingly, I think the only real suggestion for a women is to send him to MMSL (or something similar). The problem here is that men’s original programming is probably so strong that it will take a MAJOR crises to get them to change their views (and some never will). Most people are simply incapable of making major cognitive changes (i.e., their world view) without a series of significantly strong stimuli. I would suspect that most men come to the “red pill” approach after everything else has already failed and they are doing the equivalent of throwing a “hail marry” pass and/or they are struggling to understand why a relationship failed (BTW, the latter case would be my situation). I suspect (given Athol’s recent posts) that many of the guys that have been frustrating him recently are not getting it fast enough to save their marriages and may not do so before a irreversible damage has been done.

    On the other side women have the same problem. I would hazard to guess that most women don’t really know what the real problem is in their relationship. I suspect that it is (pre-red pill) almost impossible for a husband to fix a relationship once he realizes that there is a problem because neither he nor his wife has any idea what the real problem is. So while he may be washing more dishes, doing more laundry, … trying to get back into favor with his wife, her opinion of him (or really his attractiveness to her) continues to backslide for reasons obvious to those of you who read this or related blogs. This is largely because the wife herself has no idea what she wants “fixed” in most circumstances. This is combined with the observation that women (for the most part) loath telling men what is really attractive to them and whenever they do, they end up describing the sort of personality they would want in someone they are already attracted to (e.g., nice, supportive,…). This reinforces guy’s pre-existing views of women’s preferences and justifies almost all of the traditional marriage counseling BS that gets fed to them.

    One of the previous posters expressed a significant level of bitterness. I understand that as I went through it myself. What I think the guy needs to understand is that you can’t fault a woman for behaving like a woman simply because neither of you understood what you were doing. You have to take things as they are and not how you think (or were told) the SHOULD be. Once you get rid of the normative “shoulds/oughts” in life, things get a lot easier and this is the essence (in my views at least) of a red pill mentality.


  29. Jack Schitz says:

    Ooooops . Sooooo Many Typos……

  30. @Athol Kay says: “Michael – do you realize I’ve been polling the women to find out what actually worked to get a husbands attention?”

    No, I was not aware of that but it certainly sounds like a worthwhile thing to do. Obviously your 10 Suggestions are a compilation of that.

    But I’m not criticizing that. I voice no dissent that the 10 suggestions would get the husbands attention.

    My strong disagreements are that (in this post): a) you went from “talking” to him to hitting him with a nuke seemingly all in one step, and b) there is no indication whatsoever that the many things she is doing to the marriage are being addressed – the full blame and responsibility to “straighten up” is being directed at him.

    @Athol: “If you have an actual plan that works to get a husbands attention before things go critical mass, you need to state it and give an alternative to the plan I’ve laid out here.”

    Have the wife sit down with him and (for once!) be direct in her communication and lead with something like “Honey, I love you, but we have some serious problems, and we have to talk. This is not a joke and it’s not going away and we’ve got to get it straightened out.”

    Followed with something like “I know I have not at all been the wife I should be, I need to work on X, Y, and Z. And before we are done talking I want you to be very blunt with me about how I need to change. But first I need to tell you what you’re doing that is causing me major unhappiness. This is serious, our marriage is in jeopardy. For once, I need you to listen to me; *really* listen.”

    A talk (a *real* talk) is always the first step (done in private, just the two). And if that doesn’t work, then repeat the exercise with a trusted counselor.

    Your 10 suggestions come after all other options have been exhausted, she has done what she can to improve her own bad behaviors, and she is willing to break her vows and destroy her marriage and her children to get out of an intolerable situation.

  31. Athol makes an excellent observation.

  32. Michael, too many words. A guy will tune them out as normal daily babble. Most women would take that and expand the number of words by about 100 times.

  33. I don’t really see why women can’t gradually escalate their attempts to rescue their relationship the same way men do?

    Most couples have a pattern of female pursuing and men withdrawing.

    Your idea, which I find excellent, is to switch it around, men stop withdrawing and take leadership. As many men on your forum attest they have to do a lot of work to turn their relationship around and they have to change their realization of what it takes to be a man in a relationship.

    The same is true for women. Sure, they are usually already fighting for their relationship. Men tend to fight for the relationship by not upsetting the peace, women by upsetting it. Both are destructive methods. But women can also learn to behave differently. What women can do early is becoming aware of red pill thinking and trying to submit to their mens decision, good or bad. Building their mens confidence and showing trust. If that doesn’t work, by all means go nuclear. That is the same as mens dread, but it doesn’t have to come first.

    For me submitting and building the confidence of the man would be the first of the FAP not increasing the sex, because as you point out it’s counter productive.

  34. @Michael All 10 are taking the moral high ground. They are actions designed to get attention after other methods have not. But they aren’t “nuclear” options. I’d liken them to something more in the DEFCON 2-3 range rather than all out nuclear war (ending of the relationship / marriage) aka DEFCON 1.

  35. @Thaedron says: “They are actions designed to get attention after other methods have not. But they aren’t “nuclear” options.”

    I understand that’s how Athol intended them.

    I know you understand them that way.

    But the questions are:
    1) Will the wife *present* these actions as something intended to get his attention and will she explain that? Or will she just do them with the typical vindictive attitude so common among solipsistic bitter wives.
    2) Will the husband *perceive* that she is just trying to get his attention? Or will he decide to get a gun and go teach a lesson to this random guy on the internet who advised his wife to start thinking about sex with other men. Or will he just take that gun and decide to go out in a familial murder-suicide blaze of glory.*

    We know what Athol intends, but he didn’t put most of it in this post, and if you’re going to dispense advice this *dangerous* and potentially damaging, one had best be careful and very sure of the premises and context. And you’d best be sure all other options have been exhausted beforehand.

    * For all you fainters who are dialing 911, I’m not advocating violence, I’m pointing out the very real fact that it is a possibility when messing with things this volatile and I’d hate for Athol to be unintentionally a cause of it.

    Are you actually making a veiled threat to me here? Fuck this shit. Banned.

  36. @Michael – you completely and utterly miss the point. Most wives have already tried all those sitdown discussions with their husbands. Many even write out their concerns. The husbands endlessly ignore them. This goes on for years with many of them and they eventually give up trying to get their husbands attention. The entire post is about trying to communicate effectively to husbands that refuse to listen to just that sort of sitdown “rational” discussion.

    I mean I truly burst out laughing at your method here. Have you even once talked to wives who have been in this situation? I mean seriously. Have you talked to even one wife trying to deal with something like a husband with multiple years of erectile dysfunction, serious addiction problems or complete failure to seek paid work? Those guys are the most avoidant shit-weasels to talk to.

    This is all I do. I have hundreds of women on the forum who have gone through this situation and they are in basic agreement that until the shit hits the fan with serious pushback, as I’ve laid out here, the husband’s simply fail to respond to sit down talking, written statements of unhappiness and/or pleading.

    Husbands simply NEVER come to MMSL saying, “my wife had a serious conversation with me and I know I need to work on my marriage.” Husbands come to MMSL saying, “OMG I think my wife is cheating! / took her rings off / told me to leave / dramatic something.”

    And again… this is a truly routine problem I have to deal with day in and day out. It’s not an isolated incident. This is me trying to save guys that don’t fucking know how to pull their head out of their ass to wake the fuck up before they get cheated on or divorced.

  37. enlightened1 says:

    Intentionally obtuse, combative and on a kinder note just plain ignorant. First time I’ve ever been cheered when someone has been banned. Wasn’t even very veiled….
    Am I the only one out there SICK of the misused, misunderstood and misapplied use of the word ‘solipsistic?’ Now whenever I read a post where a man uses it I know two things: 1. Which blog he’s been reading and 2. That the rest of his post will sound something like ” waa, waa, blah and blah, hypergamous, all her fault, whine and sob, rend clothes and roll in sackcloth and ashes because SHE did this awful thing TO me, and I should have never trusted the bitch because it’s just ALL WOMEN’S NATURE’S, thereby absolving me of all responsibility. The word is completely worn out and renders the user a pseudo-intellectual weenie. Please just google solipsistic and read the very basics of it’s application to philosophy. Women do not monopolize this pathology.

  38. Cinnamon Swirl says:

    @Enlightened1: I think I love you!

  39. Got to agree with DEM’s sentiment (although not his tactic of leaving in a huff. I don’t have too much of a problem with people that have differing opinions. I’ve found I learn more from those that disagree with me then those that agree)
    I’ve must have met thousands of women. Presumably they all had pussies.

    I dated probably 15 to 20 women before I met my wife. I can presume they too all had pussies and can state that I personally confirmed through careful and repeated examination that 6 of those women did in fact have pussies.

    I did not marry any of those women. Nor did I want to.

    I can state categorically that I did not marry my wife for her pussy. If that was all she had to cause me to marry her, she would have nothing to offer besides what 3.5 billion other people also have.

    Your premise that husband’s marry their wives for their pussy might have been a little more defensible (although I think still wrong) prior to the Sexual Revolution, but since the 1960’s pussy has not been the closely guarded, difficult to get item that you seem to make it out to be.

  40. Athol,
    I suspect most of these things would nuke the relationship. I’ve had girlfriendsbasically tell me they don’t love me anymore, and I heard LJBF (in one case for 4 years before she tried sex with other men to move me, I attended her wedding) . I’ve had several use sidering sex with other men. In the first two cases I became a beta orbiter, the third I gave them a wedding present (she had already done the I don’t love you (i.e. won’t marry you)), the fourth time it was LJBF with benefits (she wouldn’t give up sex until she found a new supply), and by the fifth one I knew no woman could ever love me, so it was just what I had always known was coming. (By the way, after the fifth one dumped me, I later found out that they had all been in love with me. Three would also cause me to go looking for her replacement. One, Two, and Five I might not notice at all. Ten makes her sound like a golddigger, however might get it restarted.
    Six does sound good and I’ll recommend that to my daughter.

  41. I would add that one reason the complaints get shut out is that there are so many of them. If the woman is complaining about lots of other things besides the main problems, he may not hear the important issues.

  42. Weston, I think that’s reversing the syllogism.** All/your wives/wife have vaginas, but not all vagina-havers are your wife. I think all Athol is saying (crassly) is that vagina is a necessary condition for marriage. You are just pointing out that it’s not a sufficient one. Naturally, one wants a spouse to be more than a body available for sex (see Athols post on choosing a wife, and basically everything written about FOs).

    **Its been a while since I had to think about syllogisms, so I could be misstating this.

  43. Athol,
    I see this as a partial repurposing on the sie to respond to women seeking to recover a relationship, instead of just aimed at men. I wish you luck, that is a very difficult thing to do.
    However, while you may receive many posting indicating these measures worked, you souldn’t receive any postings from women who nuked their relationshisps trying them, since they wouldn’t be looking for your website.

  44. The ManoSphere view is that men have sex with women because they have pussies. But men marry women because they have character/personality/virtue/family skills/etc.. That is high self-esteem men though, which admittedly is not the majority of men today.

    So I think Athol’s formulation is wrong. But I also think he knows this and was just saying it for the sake of hyperbole.

  45. Joe_Commenter says:

    Sorry, Athol is right about pussy. Yeah, my wife is smart, has character/personality/virtue blah blah blah. Whatever. All of my best friends have all that stuff too. I didn’t marry them. If my wife didn’t have a pussy, I would have been looking for another woman.

  46. I mean… look at the scenarios Athol is painting for the husband’s behavior: horrific addiction (to whatever, gambling, porn, ESPN, I prefer whiskey), absolute refusal to work a paying job, years of zero-functionality in the penile region…

    Not to sound mean, but I’d ask two questions to the woman: why are you still with him? When do you leave?

    I don’t mean this in a mean anti-male way. But seriously. I only know a couple of worthless guys in those circumstances, and I constantly wonder what the women are waiting for. (Shadow Nirvana’s quote was awesome–what book was that? I missed the title.) Now, that being said….

    Most of the guys I know are not even close to doing that kind of shit. They are just generally not too skilled with women, and got societal/church pressure to settle down (no, not pregnancies). Some have wives that thoroughly dropped the fitness/high-value-mate ball. Some got fat/lazy themselves. Not at the “defcon 1″ level that Athol is talking about—I just mean the random couple at Target, or in that other pew at church.

    If those guys’ wives “nuked” them the way Athol is describing, Athol himself would be horrified. Somewhat below mediocre marriages DO NOT equal the godawful circumstances Athol has referenced. Needing to learn a little game and lose 25 lbs. IS NOT THE SAME as 10+ years of broken dick and spending the 401(k) on internet poker and beer… while refusing to get a job.

    Nuke that sumbitch. He’s more miserable than the wife.

    Now, that kinda boring doughy dude in the cubicle next to you, who wishes his wife would respond to his initiation more than twice a month… of course you don’t nuke that guy. (He’s in a cubicle, which means job!) Athol does not mean to nuke that guy.

    Michael, you kept harping on the “blame all the mens!!1one” line, which admittedly wasn’t the clearest way to communicate. But damn bro, that’s clearly not what was intended.

  47. And yeah, if Mrs. DJ did not have a vagina, I would not have married/dated her. But I would be SO CURIOUS… so many questions.

    Better (worse?) question is:
    If Mrs. DJ were a jobless screechtard who (nonetheless) made me forget porn every day of my life… whew, TOUGH DECISION HERE. I’ll take vagina again, Alex, for $800.

  48. OK, I need some clarification after reading this post and the accompanying comments. And just to be clear myself, I do NOT intend any sarcasm with what I’m asking here, so please do not read any into what I’m writing…

    I understand that this post is aimed at women desperately trying to resolve relationship issues with their husbands, and is not aimed as much at men trying to improve their relationship with their wives, but… please help me understand how to reconcile this advice with the rules of the MAP. I can best explain my question with an example: In a typical blue pill marriage with a Nice Guy husband who’s desperately trying to bump up the sexual bumping frequency to a level ANYwhere above once every ovulation or two, Wife complains often about something husband does or does not do, saying their relationship would be OH SO much better if he would change the offending behavior. So, Nice Guy husband tries to accommodate her complaint and changes the offending behavior. Wife acknowledges husband’s efforts with a “Good boy” pat on the head but no change in the sex frequency. Nice Guy discovers MMSL and the red pill, realizes what a chump he’s been all along, and starts MAP-ing. Part of his MAP is to stop accommodating her complaints when doing so has historically resulted in nothing more than a pat on the head and continued blue pill blue balls. Yet, if I’m reading this post correctly (and I acknowledge that I must be missing a key component) it sounds like Nice Guy could be actually endangering his relationship by ignoring Wife’s complaining, especially if he makes a red pill habit out of it.

    Is the difference related to somehow being able to discern the difference between Fitness Test complaints and legitimate relationship threatening complaints? Or, does the difference revolve around the type of relationship they have and who is trying to make the changes? Is it only when husband is happy but Wife is bitchy that Husband needs to be concerned (in which case they’re doomed, because in this situation Husband has never had a need to seek out MMSL)? Is it a case of (Complaining Wife) + (Unhappy Nice Guy husband) = (Run MAP-and-if-she-still-leaves-who-cares)?

  49. The word is completely worn out and renders the user a pseudo-intellectual weenie. Please just google solipsistic and read the very basics of it’s application to philosophy. Women do not monopolize this pathology.

    The mere fact of your rhetorical hyperbole indicates the effectiveness of the term. I note that even one of its onetime critics, Susan Walsh, has accepted that it is a legitimate and useful description of certain forms of female behavior. Therefore, I recommend you leave the determination of the usefulness of Game-related neologisms to your intellectual superiors.

  50. I have to agree with this post. Most relationships that die/get broken up do so because the woman has effectively checked out and no longer believes that it is over. I’ve been really hurt by having a partner whom checked out but when confronted with me saying “Let’s end this now.” she couldn’t, wouldn’t. I kept looking at the whole relationship thing as a commitment thing, she was just waiting for her feelings to go to zero.

    But as misunderstood as Athol’s post might be (And yes, it sounds a bit bitter, but he’s been coaching, helping and listening to thousands of people in relationship troubles here, so he has a pretty good image on how they these relationships end up failing. People don’t come here because they have happy healthy relationships, they come here because they want to get into these), he’s simply saying : Men and women, you are miscommunicating.

    Talk is cheap. Action leads to change. And he’s giving some pretty strong tools to be used when talk is no longer working. He’s not advocating to break up the relationship, he’s advocating that as a woman, you give ample warning by means of your behavior. Don’t just say that you don’t like a situation, let him know by action that he understands.

    It’s a shame that so many people are deeply afraid of drawing borders, ending unhealthy relationships and that the only reason we exist is to make babies : Men exist to fuck, women exist to be fucked. That’s the body agenda and no matter how much you see other, loftier ideals, it won’t work unless that body agenda is satisfied.

  51. My husband has a monster sized rationalization capacity, which serves him well professionally, but harms our marriage. I push back with brutal honesty.
    I state he is fat. He rationalizes that his work precludes exercise and eating well. I state he is weak willed and his appearance is low priority. I downgraded the gym membership to single when he failed to use it.
    HIM: “Will you be horny later? ”
    ME: “Will you be sexy later? Do you know how lust works?”
    He asserts that he works endlessly because of the nature of the work beast. I correct him that he works excessively because he is a spineless wuss who lets his partners walk on him. I point out his cowardly behavior. When he thinks poorly, I point out his logical fallacy and poor memory.
    I assault him directly with his poor social skills. He talks at people, does not listen, and drones on in his own bubble.
    Hints, persuasion, humor, delicacy do not work with this man. Brutal honesty works better to preserve our 31 year marriage.

  52. RedPillAlready says:

    I’m in somewhat of the reverse situation. (i’m a man with a wife who ignores the marriage).

    The problem is, I do the “big thing” and get packed up to go. She freaks out and makes huge changes to fix everything, and for a certain number of months it’s superb. Eventually though we’re back to square one. So, then what?

    I’m on the 3rd iteration of this now, and again she’s promising that “everything will be different”

    Obviously I’m a moron, but at what point do I turn around and just leave — no chance at reconciliation. If she’s awesome for 3, 4, 5 months, how much shit should I then take before I leave again?

    The only way to keep her interested and motivated is to have one foot out of the door. That’s a little too much red pill.

  53. Jeez, I walk away for a couple of days and BOOM! Athol is on fire again! Good job Athol!

    Some men are so rationalized or dense they don’t see the obvious warning signs. I was one of them 2 years ago when my wife did almost exactly what you describe above. In hindsight, there was a ton of white noise about divorce and tons of bickering and screaming and yelling but it wasn’t until she was just about to move out and start having sex with another guy that I figure it out! Men are so dense sometimes this is what it takes to get their frickin attention.

    Athol, you nailed another post!

  54. Shadow_Nirvana says:

    Hi, DJ, glad you liked the excerpt from the book, it was from “Women’s Infidelity 1″ but the ” 2 ” is great, too. Basically it gives a lot of dead-on observations about society and relations, some stuff for men to stop enabling or to stop period the cheating women, and some solid advice to move out of the limbo of infidelity.

    Now, about the “married for her pussy” stuff. Okay seriously, guys that say they married her for her personality, brains etc if you really believe that why didn’t you marry one of your guy friends? Her personality,brains, caring,attitude whatever made you choose her over other girls(who already had pussy!). So, stop thinking the basis of different sex relations is anything other than sex!

  55. @Jen Thanks for responding.

    My understanding is that a syllogism requires at least one (and by some definitions) two inferences in order to reach the stated conclusion. I did have to research the term in order to refresh my own memory because it has been a long, long time since I studied philosophy and debate. I’m not sure whether Athol’s posting could be defined as a syllogism, but I’m quite certain that my response is not itself a syllogism or a reverse syllogism . I don’t see where I draw any inferences at all in stating my conclusion. Unless you count my inference that all the woman that I’ve met that I haven’t seen naked do in fact have vagina’s.

    Apologizing in advance for being a broken down old English major, but when I read Athol’s last two postings my mind immediately made me think “Oh. I remember these from college. These are inductive fallacies.”

    This determination gets strengthened by the fact that when one or more of these conclusions are challenged and other commenters support Athol’s conclusion they often fall back on variations of the same words you used “I think all that Athol is saying…..” and then rephrase his statement in a way that makes it far more supportable but also changes the very essential nature of what he wrote.

    As an example. Your comment

    “…that vagina is a necessary condition for marriage.” is supremely reasonable (assuming as I do that there is no need to go down a whole “gay male marriage” tangent)

    BUT that is not what he said.

    What he said was “he married you for your pussy and that’s about it”

    Do you not see a massive gap between those two statements?

  56. @Weston. Oh definitely. I meant something more like what Joe_Commenter wrote, but made it too complicated, and forget about that additional line “and that’s about it.” I read this as an attempt at comic hyperbole – mostly because everything on MMSL about choosing a wife is the exact opposite of this idea.

    According to older MMSL posts, you are not supposed to marry the woman you want to date (or just have sex with), you are supposed to marry a someone who will be a good wife, which includes stuff like mental health, intelligence, independent interests, your personal “must have,” and, of course, being game for great sex on the regular. Also, the blog is suffused with a genuine appreciation of Athol’s own wife’s good-tempered sweetness, common sense, and other non-sexual characteristics. So, you’re right, maybe I’m giving him a bit of pass on that line from the post.

    @Chakotay: I think the answer is that MMSL teaches guys to be constantly parsing what their wives are saying to them, honoring reasonable requests, indulging some some sentimental/silly ones (the princess fiona treatment), and summarily disposing of the unreasonable/controlling ones in a firm, logical way.
    Ignoring your wife is bad alpha/beta all around. Even when you’re dealing with the hamster, you’re not ignoring it.

  57. Omnivorous says:

    @athol – been lurking for a long time. got torqued about irrational criticism which in turn made me irrational, prompting my first comment. my apologies for the extent I contributed to sturm und drang in your previous post’s comments.

    @jen – here’s a wiki quickie covering bits about propositional logic with an emphasis on DeMorgan’s laws, iff you’re looking for a refresh –'s_laws
    It was quite the flashback to some philosophy and engineering classes.

    “You will find many of the truths we cling to depend upon a certain point of view”

  58. Hints, persuasion, humor, delicacy do not work with this man. Brutal honesty works better to preserve our 31 year marriage.

    anonymous, is it having any effect?

  59. Athol, does that mean if you think something is wrong in your relationship, you shouldn’t bring it up? If she’s distant or something like that, you shouldn’t ask her why? Just wondering how to deal with problems since overt communication seems to be backfire half the time. Sounds like you’d just try to fix things behind the scenes, but if you don’t know what’s wrong, then… yeah.

    Absolutely you should be trying to verbally communicate. Noticing a distant partner is always grounds to try and figure out what’s wrong. In fact do that sooner rather than later.

  60. Soooo…put me down for the wife who was loving faithful and wondering why she wasn’t attracted to her loving and faithful husband. We were at a sexual Impasse, and talking was just so much white noise. It wasn’t until I sent a virtual atom bomb into his cozy nice-guy world of denial that he sort of jerked awake and started reading the primer and following this blog, then the forum.

    For those of you floundering around and trying stuff that isn’t working, come to the forum. Nice people. And help seeing the issues in your marriage for what they really are.

  61. @anonymous 10:03 am:

    >>>”My husband has a monster sized rationalization capacity, which serves him well professionally, but harms our marriage. I push back with brutal honesty.”

    No, you’re pushing back with a combination of brutal honesty AND acting like a raging bitch. The honesty might help, if it weren’t being and completely undone and undermined by your self-centered attacks.

    Let me give you an example, from your own comments:

    >>> “I state he is fat. He rationalizes that his work precludes exercise and eating well. I state he is weak willed and his appearance is low priority. I downgraded the gym membership to single when he failed to use it.”

    OK, he’s fat. That’s bad. What he needs is motivation to be healthy, and to stop rationalizing his inactivity. How can you help him overcome both problems?

    1. Offer him some positive reinforcement, rather than just blanket, demeaning criticism like the “weak-willed” garbage. That’s not helping, even if it makes you feel good to get your petty attacks in. There is a difference between saying, “You’re a weak-willed fatty” and “I’d suck your dick under the dinner table if you were healthier.” One is an attack, a form of demeaning ridicule. The other is an incentive.

    2. He is using the fact that he works a lot to justify not exercising. My guess is you criticize the inactivity a lot more than you appreciate the work. One solution is for you to stop encouraging his defense mechanism (which you are, even if you don’t realize it). When he says, “I work a lot” what it sounds like he is really saying is, “You have no fucking appreciation for how hard I work for your benefit.”

    Solution? Try showing him basic courtesy and appreciation for how hard he works. When he comes home, take his stuff from him at the door and give him a kiss and a drink. It takes only 5 minutes of TLC from you for a man to be recharged to go out and work hard for you the next day. If you aren’t giving him this basic appreciation, I expect it’s probably because you feel as though you’re already entitled to receive his maximum service and work, regardless of what you do for him. Re-think that.

    >>> “He asserts that he works endlessly because of the nature of the work beast. I correct him that he works excessively because he is a spineless wuss who lets his partners walk on him. I point out his cowardly behavior. When he thinks poorly, I point out his logical fallacy and poor memory.”

    You’re just insulting him, which means that his work is miserable, and his home life is miserable! What possible motivation does he have to take risks for your benefit under these circumstances? He’s probably just eating a lot because food is the only thing in his life that doesn’t shit on him every day. Has it ever occurred to you to be kind and helpful?

    >>> “I assault him directly with his poor social skills. He talks at people, does not listen, and drones on in his own bubble.”

    More attacks. But the underlying cause might be that he doesn’t believe that you truly listen to him. People talk until they feel heard. If you were more attentive (and it only takes a little of it from you), then he would probably relent when you changed the subject.

    >>> “Hints, persuasion, humor, delicacy do not work with this man. Brutal honesty works better to preserve our 31 year marriage.”

    Combine your honesty with some genuine appreciation, respectful requests, and active assistance, and you’ll get a better response. Instead of just cancelling the gym membership and then rubbing his nose in it, buy him some new sneakers, or athletic shorts, or find a different gym offering the kind of exercise he likes. Look into doing something fun, like a sport or active hobby, which is more rewarding than just grinding out sets and reps in a gym. The hardest part is starting, so when he does, reward the positive first steps.

    Overeating and obesity are not normal. They are a sign that your husband is deeply unhappy. His desire to improve his daily life is very low, probably because he feels there is little hope of improving it. Try being less of a critical harpy and unappreciative asshole, and you might get a different response from him.

    Try it for 30 days, as an experiment, if you don’t believe me.

  62. Okay people, a couple of things. It’s not that women aren’t at fault and men are horrible; it’s that when presented with the situation (my wife is leaving me or isn’t having sex with me, or something else is happening) the person who needs to -take action- is the man. That the man, through the way society tells him to behave, is causing his wife to fall out of love with him, or slip away from the relationship emotionally. Then you fix it. Second, most men think everything’s fine. I know. What woke me up was when my wife took off her wedding ring, asked for a divorce, and started paying -way- too much attention to another of my male friends, all in the same week. The “nuclear” option that gets taken too often is THE WIFE HAS MADE UP HER MIND, THE RELATIONSHIP IS OVER, AND SHE’S LEAVING. At that point, it’s too late, because the woman’s mind was made up. What Athol is encouraging women to do is NOT TO DO THAT. What he’s encouraging women to do INSTEAD of pushing the big red button and nuking the U.S.S. YourMarriage into oblivion, is to take a warning shot across her bow. Take a serious, severe, and extreme action while she is still willing to work on fixing the marriage, if only the man will wake up and realize that his nice guy behavior or his passivity or his slovenly appearance or his extra 230 lbs or his lack of personal hygiene is DIRECTLY involved in a negative reinforcement cycle that turns her off, grosses her out, or otherwise damages her feelings of adoration and affection for the man. He’s NOT encouraging women to give up on the relationship, only to communicate exactly HOW serious this problem is to her husband while there’s a chance to get it fixed, in a way that makes it clear that she’s still in it, if he’s willing to fix it. He’s NOT blaming the man for all the faults in the marriage, but the fact of the matter is that it’s a lot easier for the guy to stop the negative reinforcement cycle than it is for the woman – all her stuff is based in emotional behaviors, where sometimes with a guy it’s as simple as getting him to take a shower more than once a month, or to go back to the doctor to get the Wellbutrin refilled.

  63. I agree with Athol’s post after having been through it myself a couple of times, but some people are missing the point. I’ll use a metaphor in the hopes of making it simpler to understand where he is coming from.

    Metaphor: A man in a relationship is a frog in a pot of water. The woman has control of the heat. Note that the roles can be reversed but we are talking about this post specifically. If someone wants to rewrite it to be gender neutral so it can be applied to getting women to lose weight etc, then please do.

    The heat in a relationship (stress/nagging/white noise) increases SLOWLY over time and he gets used to it i.e. it is the “new normal”. Slowly increasing the heat by doing what you have always done is only going to get your frog boiled faster (and eventually dead to you).

    Athol is saying that you need to turn up the heat quickly enough so the damn frog realizes he is in trouble and can decide if he wants to make the attempt to jump out of the pot. It is only if the frog has a chance to get out of the pot that he can turn into your prince.

    If you are too timid to turn up the heat when necessary, then you are committing to watch your potential prince boil to death. Of course, the corollary to this is that a quick burst of heat at lower temperatures (earlier in the stressful event) is more effective and a lot less damaging than waiting until the frog close to boiling temperature.

    Another thing to realize is that there is a minimum heat (relationship stress) output on the burner.
    One commenter insisted that Athol focus on teaching the women to turn down the heat by holding them to account for their feelings and actions. Aside from understanding that Athol does have posts about that, he missed the point that this post is for the women that have already done that. Remember that by default Athol is only talking about cases where her expectations of the relationship are reasonable as defined at MMSL and not for entitled princesses everywhere (although it might have been useful to write that out as a disclaimer for new readers and as troll speed bumps). The woman therefore cannot turn the heat down all the way because the stress of him not meeting reasonable relationship expectations (financial security, physical attractiveness, emotional support, etc.) is valid. So the temperature stays well above “cool”. Thoughout this, the woman is looking at the frog and subconsciously realizing that all of that heat is taking its toll on the frog, and so her perceived utility of that frog is decreasing by the minute.

    Athol has laid out several scenarios above. Choose which ones will be most effective for you, as it will vary by husband and relationship. Unlike some of the commenters, I believe that most women do have the judgement to apply these without blowing up their marriages and it is definitely more fair to the man than the “do nothing” approach my ex used with me.

    tldr: Man as frog in pot of water on stove. Turn up the heat so he becomes uncomfortable enough to act. He needs to change his priority from soaking in the hot tub to get out, get dressed, and go make something of himself for his own benefit.

    EDIT: Athol. Great post on dread game for women. Wish I’d figured that out before writing out this comment.

  64. I believe what Athol is advocating is dread game for women. This is a positive thing because it means she still wants her husband and he has a chance to make some changes.

    Jonathon above says ” What woke me up was when my wife took off her wedding ring, asked for a divorce, and started paying -way- too much attention to another of my male friends, all in the same week.”

    I’m pretty sure the dread of her leaving woke him up and he is grateful for that rather than the alternative of coming home from work one day to find out she is gone and the house is cleaned out. I imagine he wouldn’t even mind (and would probably prefer) finding out that it was all a ploy to get him off his ass and make some changes.

  65. @all the readers/commenters that took issue with this statement: “your wonderful charming man that’s great with the kids… he married you for your pussy and that’s about it.”

    This is your clue that the cultural brainwashing has been so effective on you that you are having a hard time getting in touch with your own basic sexuality. If you are an emotionally well-adjusted man, then you have met many normal well-adjusted people that will met most of the criteria on your marriage candidate checklist. You chose your wife based on that checklist. However, you fail to realize that you didn’t even pull out the checklist until you decided that you would like to have sex with her (hence Athol’s) pussy reference). As another poster pointed out, if your base criteria were focused on emotional compatibility, low drama, initiation of sex, good parenting, and similar interests, then you’d have married your best male friend. If you say you needed to marry a woman because you wanted to have kids, then guess what….you married her for her sex (womb via pussy). You are the flip side of the women that say they are looking for a “Nice Guy”. What you really looking for is someone you are attracted to that then has the additional qualities you are looking for.

    Athol is laying out an absolute truth for you that you need to keep in mind at all times. You can get away with a lot of crap if you stay sexy and lay him regularly. It is your get out of jail free card with your man, so keep it in good shape, use it wisely and often, and realize that you definitely earn frequent flyer points. Men naively believe in relationship equity, so use it to your advantage.

  66. I, for one, am stunned by Mr Kay’s third suggestion “(3) Ask him to move out.” I would have perfectly understood Athol telling the wife to move out, but here, to my surprise, he’s doing exactly what everyone else does by encouraging the idea that the wife gets to stay in the house (even if the husband bought it and owns it), while the husband is obligated to move out.

    I am disgusted.

    It works to get his attention though.

  67. Nothing to say here there were 69 comments and I didn’t wanted to let any dirty shenanigans to continue and get off my lawn now! :)

  68. To expand on Mint’s point above.

    I would say, if things have gotten to the point where a guy’s woman is telling him she wants him to move out, that represents a great place to make a crucial start on his own Male Action Plan.

    The response of the newly awakened, self-improving man to 3) “request to move out” can only be one thing:

    “No. ” Followed by:

    “You’re welcome to move out right away if you don’t want to be in the same house with me. You’re welcome to start sleeping in another bedroom, or move into the basement or whatever- but you don’t kick me around like a dog, or walk all over me like a doormat.”

    Oh well, she’ll get his attention, just like you said.

    And for the record, guys reading this: if children are involved, their future depends critically on how you hadle this type of demand.

    If you have children thrown into the mix, your assertiveness at such ajuncture is critical. Your response in that situation could be:

    “No. At least not for now”

    The reason is you need to consider everything to do with the children’s welfare before you take action. Family Law courts tend to favor keeping children as stable as possible, and usually favor the children staying in their present home. The parent who stays in the house pretty much has the easiest time gaining the lion’s share of custody, access control etc..

    Guys, if you move out, you are essentially agreeing to a fait acompli concerning the future of your children. It’s a 99% probability she will control their future, and you will face substantial support obligations with little input into their upbringing, except as the “nagging ex.”

    So ask yourself (this is separate form the sex and communication issues between you and your spouse) “is this person the best one to be the main caregiver for my children?” “Is she even a negative influnce, i.e., do I want primary custody?” “Would she make a better caregive than I would?”

    Once you’ve made your decision about them- then you make decisions about who moves out based on that.

    Of course in this day & age, there are lots of things you need to be prepared for, especially if you’re concerned about the Nuclear Option (false abuse or rape allegations) being used to get you out of the house forcibly.

    Anyhow, if your angry spouse has gotten your attention by playing no. 3), I would say this, guys.

    i. Get on the MAP right away,
    ii. start trying to figure her out.
    iii. Ask her to start communicating directly in guy-understandable language rather that the sort of vague, intuitive mode women use among themselves.
    iv. “Just say No” to the request to move out.

  69. @Athol, concerning one concept in your post:
    >”you were simply talking to a man you knew wasn’t listening to you.”

    Sometimes women know this, but I’d have to say IME more oftem women don’t know that their man has tuned them out.

    They are oblivious to the fact that he can’t “get” what they’re saying, because they’re talking to him in “Womanese,” instead of “Guylish”

    It’s the old problem of communicating to members of the opposite sex in ways that the person talking would want to be spoken to, not in a way the hearer can understand or relate to.

    Of course the one everybody knows about is the situation where a woman wants to talk to get her feelings aired, and the clueless guy starts talking logic and how to “fix the situation” instead of acknoledging her feelings and letting her know she’s got support.

    But women- you do the mirror image of that to us guys!

    I can’t tell you how many times I or other guys have faced situations where a woman tells us half of what we need to know, then gets pissed off at us for not being able to read minds.

    Therefore, at the head of Athols attention getting checklist, I would like to insert two items:
    “Make sure he can understand and relate to what I’m saying”
    “talk to him in a way that gets through”

    Then escalate.

  70. startame says:

    I periodically cycle through MMSL not sure why I don’t make it more regular. Couple things…
    1) Does anyone know what VD 6:18 was talking about?
    2) Read the article, read the comments, I found both to be depressing, for the truth not because I disagreed. Been out of marriage a long time, and very happy unmarried. I notice the longer I’m unmarried, the harder of a time people seem to have with it, as if I am being highly counter-cultural.
    But I think when people think about marriage and want for marriage, they think of sex and intimacy and partnership. I think those things are possible. I also think *THIS* is likely. If it weren’t, there wouldn’t be this site, or all of us here reading and commenting. So it’s like, for marriage, guaranteed: THIS.
    And acquiring excellent game skills is a spoonful of sugar so the medicine goes down?
    What if I just want to be. I hit the gym, hard, because I like it. I work hard and am ambitious in my career, because that suits me, period. I take care of my kids because I understand my life’s mission nevermind anyone else.
    I don’t want to game anyone.
    All of those are meandering thoughts to ask: is it worth it? If you know you have to game, is it worth it? If you know that this is the way that you will misunderstand communication and be forced to have conflict, is it worth it? Why would anyone want this? Is it just that already being married the sunk cost is so high? If unmarried the fantasy too powerful? What it is?

  71. AlmostAnonymous says:


    1/ don’t worry about it. it is intellectual masterbation by someone suffering from cranial-rectal inversion syndrome.

    2/ disillusionment. it is hard not to become bitter and angry when taking the red pill. however (there is a however), understanding how relationships work makes relationships better. you just have to learn the skills first.

    it is like learning how to drive a car. at first you need to think about every little detail and it is tiring. after you master the skill, it becomes easy and effortless. only then can you really enjoy driving.

    the same hold true for relationships.

    i imagine that there are people who enjoy complete solitude, but i am not one of them. i love having a good relationship with my wife. it makes everything better. what i have learned has made that possible.

    in my opinion? it is worth it. just like taking the time to learn how to drive a car.

  72. My Wife left me since last year after we both have one kid we where happily married on till something dramatic took place because we had a little misunderstanding she left me all this while i have not been my self i love her so very much and for once i can never thought of forgetting the love we both shared,i was browsing seeking advice on marriage counseling and advice that i was opportune to see some ones comment of how Priest Ajigar did a love spell on her husband that brought him back i decided to contact him and explain my situation’s to him which he helped me last week was the day i did the love spell on her and after two days she came back to me what a powerful spell caster he is i am so happy that she is back to me once more again and i am also using this medium to advice that if your marriage is broken and you need help just contact Priest Ajigar on


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