Outcome Independence

Outcome Independence (OI) is usually thought of as making a move for sex on a woman and not caring about the outcome. Free of need for her to say yes, she’s impressed by your confidence and her panties fall off automatically.

What that means in practical reality is you ask for sex, she says no and you walk away trying not to act like Ralph Wiggim.

It’s a good thing to learn, but the true Outcome Independence needed to run a successful MAP is a lot harder than that. Eventually it may come to a place where you aren’t just gambling on a single night, but on the relationship as a whole. That’s all your chips on the table and a single roll of the dice.

This is why I see a lot of guys getting themselves to Phase Three Point Nine Nine and never quite making the jump to Phase Four. Everything is easy and safe in Phase One, Two and Three… but Phase Four and beyond… well that’s starting to get really risky.

But even not pushing to Phase Four is risky after a while, because a long term Phase Three with you being unhappy and not getting what you want…

… is really called Phase One.

The MAP is a bit of a roller coaster some times. Ups and Downs, but you can’t get off halfway if you don’t like it.

Anyway…  from the forum…

 @AlphaBelle talking to one of the guys:  It IS hard, but that’s what outcome independence really is. Not the whole “I didn’t whine when she turned me down for sex” thing it always gets trotted out for.

True outcome independence is saying, “I have no frickin idea how this is going to turn out. Is she going to come around and be a good wife? Am I going to have to go all the way to phase 6? Are we going to divorce? Am I going to push her over the psycho edge by not enabling her anymore? I DONT KNOW.  But I am going to keep moving forward in my MAP and become the best, kindest, strongest, wisest, most productive version of me I can be, and not let the unknown outcome of it all paralyze me or set me off course.”

Emotionally Independent of the outcome, I am MAPing.

Athol:  And frankly it’s no different for the women either. 95% of men and women come to MMSL with the same basic problem – they put up with too much for too long. Eventually you have to push back, stand up for yourself and grow a harder edge to yourself.

Kind by nature, cold by requirement.

And for @AlphaBelle, who is in the middle of her I don’t know…


  1. aww, what a great video from LOTR. Thumbs up for AB.

  2. It also is not knowing things will end badly, so the only reason to get emotional is not getting shot down, although to the other person it looks just like OI. (Was in that swamp for years, finally got so good the woman broke down when I was happy to see her with new boyfriend chosen to upset me; I was just glad to have had six months with her, though forever would have been my preference.)

  3. That’s the thing. OI is easy when you’re single, which is to say functionally single: living apart, no shared finances, no kids, etc. You get shot down, you move on to the next prospect, no sweat.

    It’s harder when you’re living together, when you’re married, and especially when there are kids involved. It’s all-too-easy to convince yourself (or for her to convince herself) that you’re pot-committed, that you should put up with more than her because a breakup or divorce would be too emotionally and financially draining to be worth it. Because you DO have more to lose.

    Apart from just making yourself more attractive, part of the effectiveness of the MAP, I think, lies in cultivating in yourself the self-respect to know that the pain and expense and trouble of a breakup or divorce would be worth it if it were the only way to get the marriage you want. That your long-term happiness and fulfillment is worth that short-term sacrifice.

  4. “Kind by nature, cold by requirement.” Hot damn! I like that. Going in my dating profile. Ze LOLZ!

  5. @Ben

    You are correct.

    It’s the old “equation” of when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change, then a change will become the attractive option.

  6. @Ben – what ZLX1 said!

  7. TheatreMommy says:

    Yah… That clip is beautiful, but that poor lady is such a beta orbiter of Aragorn. She really wastes the pretty there. But she is a great character, and strong. Which is to say, so is AB.

  8. practicallyperfect says:

    But in the end when Eowyn (AlphaBelle) has fought her battle and has been refined by it does she truly come to know her own value and ends up with her own prince Faramir who is much more suited for her.

  9. I’ve never seen nor read LOTR, so I’m not picking up what most of you are laying down, but that was an awesome clip, and I think AlphaBelle is an awesome lady, and I know everything will work out. She is strong! No doubt!

    And, as an aside, and as a customer, I have to say that Athol has a knack for motivating and building people up. It seems like, regardless of your background, hurdles or personality, he has a way of communicating with you.

    Many thanks to Athol Kay. Best of luck to AB and FT.

  10. Outcome Independence in marriage means being ready for breakup/divorce at any time, and giving up your fear of it. If it’s still too scary to contemplate, consider:

    (1) Divorce is inevitable for a man who can’t display OI
    (2) You’ll be a lot less scared once you prepare your life for the possibility of being served divorce papers at any time on any day.
    (3) OI will probably turn your marriage into a really great one.

    Be careful with (3). I try to treat every date like it’s both my first and my last, even though the outcome is lots of dates and sex over and over.

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