Is a Religious Conversion Like an Affair?

From the forum…

Sleepy:  I was reading Athol’s blog yesterday “Quirky Gifts and Flair” and read this line… she starts checking out of the relationship because she’s unhaaaaaappppppy and about to Eat, Pray, Love an exit.

So, my wife of 20+ years and 4 kids who has always been anti religion started to convert to Catholicism in secret. When I figured it out, I felt like she was cheating on me (about 6 months of individual and couples therapy and I still feel this way) as this was done in secret and her reason for needing god was that we were no longer good as a couple and she needed “love”. I flipped and basically took a position of no contact as if this was an affair, which she has done with just enough complaint that I know she still wants too.

Without going into all the details here (if there is a lot of interest I could add a thread in the 911 Relationship ER section) I guess my question is how evil am I and are there others out there who have felt this way?

Athol:  Well Eat, Pray, Love refers to a book, but the answer to your questions is yes / no / kinda / sorta / it depends.

It’s usually a critical junction when one half of a couple changes their religious status, either becoming more religious, less religious, or changing religions. They can be a wide variety of changes in personal interests and personality from benign to quite alarming as someone changes from one religious viewpoint to another. It’s always hopeful that an inter-faith marriage will stay stable, but the more divergent the expressions of belief are, the greater the stress is on the marriage.

This is largely the same effect at work as shared beliefs of any sort. Two democrats or two republicans are likely going to be more comfortable married to each other than a democrat and a republican are. It’s all about being able to relax with each other at the end of the day instead of wanting to disagree about something. Same deal if someone suddenly becomes crazy about a diet while the other isn’t. It’s a relationship stress to have one of you wanting to eat Paleo and the other being a Vegetarian… though the old joke stands that if you really want to piss off a Vegetarian give them vegetables to eat… most of them just want to eat pasta all day.

The more fundamentalist (Wikipedia) the conversion the greater the stress on the relationship is. Note that Wikipedia link to fundamentalist covers Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu and even Non-Religious fundamentalism. As soon as one half of the couple digs in their heels and states they are right and their partner is not merely in misguided disagreement, but utterly wrong… or even literally damned and/or evil for whatever reason… the relationship is heading for seriously choppy waters.

If you’ve ever had your partner educated as to your total failure of morality by their near entire social group, you’ll know just how hopeless your situation is. You could be a tax-paying, law abiding, full and complete stop on red, look both ways before you cross the street, girl scout cookie buying sweetheart, but having 20-30 people tell your spouse that failure to believe in [religious belief] turns you into a horrible fallen person hell bent on destroying everything precious and good… well, it has an effect. Speaking as a good evangelical Christian back in the day my first serious girlfriend was Catholic… it doesn’t take many people giving you “Godly frowns of concern” to make you feel uneasy about your relationship. That was a Catholic girl too, not even a clutch-the-pearls Non-Christian… that would have had people directly saying things to me like, “I’d like to encourage you to seek the Lord’s guidance”, which is how evangelicals tell you you’re retarded.

And yes I get that there are a wide variety of expressions of belief from rather insipid, to rather psychotic in intensity, even within each faith or even denomination. I’m painting with a wide brush here.

Anyway… back to the question at hand…

My knee jerk reaction to your situation is that you have two issues rather than one issue.

(1)  The state of the marriage.

(2)  Her interest in Catholicism.

What she’s saying is essentially, “Because of (1) I’m (2)” which is trying to turn it into one issue. This is a poor solution because the marriage issues aren’t going to be fixed by going to church and it is obviously driving a bigger wedge between you.

My advice would be to figure out the marriage issues as marriage issues, and allow the religious issue to be handled as a religious issue. So grab the free forum booklet and answer the nine triage questions in a 911 thread on the forum and people can help you get to the bottom of things.

Or put another way, if the marriage is chugging along just great, everyone getting along well, lots of sex and laughter… would it matter very much at all if she was a standard issue Catholic?

I will say this much though, I’m not convinced she’s been hiding it from you as a way of hurting you, more as a way of trying not to lose you in the process. When I became an atheist, I kept that a secret a looooooong time. I thought I was risking my marriage coming out about it, which because my faith was part and parcel of my attractiveness to Jennifer, I think it really was. When I finally told Jennifer she bawled her eyes out with me feeling like the worst husband ever. Even after that, it took fourteen years before I felt comfortable publicly identifying as an atheist.

Anyhoo…

As official MMSL policy, I personally don’t care what you believe or disbelieve in. I obviously self-identify as atheist because I don’t believe in a deity, but I’m not trying to actively convert anyone to that point of view on MMSL. I only try and get involved in religious issues on MMSL when it seems to be clearly screwing with the marriage. At this point the entire fabric of western civilization is sufficiently screwed up that individual marriages are like sandbags keeping back the flood-waters. I don’t care what type of sand you have in your bag, just that you have a sandbag that isn’t going to fall apart.

 

If You Really Really Love Me

From the forum…

Kalda:  Now, almost three months later, I am doing better and still making progress. The biggest improvements have been physical. I’m in the best shape of my life and maintaining 5-6 workouts a week while cutting back on the junk food. She, however, is the heaviest she has ever been.

My wife bounces between commenting on how good I look in positive ways and expressing concern I will leave her for a younger or fitter woman. I’m looking for some ideas on how to respond to the latter comments. I’ve told her I’ll support any positive health changes she wants to make when she has brought up exercise or diet, but when she talks about me leaving her I just laugh it off. Tonight she said something and laughing it off felt awkward and she seemed sad. Is there a good way to redirect those comments to flirt or keep a positive vibe between us?

Athol:  This is her Loyalty Testing you.

This is actually a pretty serious thing. If she’s really starting to dread that there’s nothing she can do to keep you, she’ll give up on the relationship. So whether she starts checking out of the relationship because she’s unhaaaaaappppppy and about to Eat, Pray, Love an exit, or she starts checking out of the relationship because she thinks you’re going to dump her, doesn’t matter… she’s going to start withdrawing from you, or even start looking for someone who she can jump ship to before you pull the trigger.

In fact you might be a sizzling 9 and her a 7 and she might move sideways to some guy who is just 7 himself to avoid the pain of you smashing her to the ground.

You trying to laugh it off is the exact wrong thing to do, because to her, this is a really unfunny situation. When you laugh, she experiences it as you laughing at her predicament. She’s looking for loyalty and your emotional involvement with her, instead you’re displaying high value and detachment from her.

This is why the pure Alpha approach utterly fails in long term relationships. You can pretty much set your watch on a six month timer for pure Alpha to just blow it all up.

Anyway…

You do two things to pass this test.

(1)  State clearly what your standards are for her behavior as a wife. Stuff like her sexual interest in you, appearance, general work ethic. Make them all reasonably high standards, but by no means impossible. Something that she would have to apply herself to get done, but not kill herself to consistently do in reality.

(2)  Say that as long as she does (1), she never need fear you leaving her, or cheating on her. If she does right by you, you will do right by her. You need to say this with complete conviction and emotional content. You can also say that you know you could find someone else if you had to, but you want it to be her.

What this amounts to is an all purpose, “There is no X until Y” variant. X is the (2) and the Y is the (1).

This all sounds horribly manipulative I know, but what it sums down to for her is this….

(A)  She’s with a guy hotter than her.

(B)  He demands her best of her.

(C)  He’s loyal to her.

Which all in all doesn’t sound like a bad arrangement.  The trick for the guy pulling this off though is this…

…there is no trick. You have to believe it and commit to it, to sell it. What you’re saying is that if someone hotter than your wife comes along and makes a play for you, you’ll just enjoy it as compliment and that’s as far as it goes.

Anyway… Steel Panther video time… kinda like this, just bring it down a couple of notches.

 

…okay so not very much like Steel Panther. My bad.

The Eternal Captain Rule

If there’s a element of learning the Red Pill that’s like getting a gaping chest wound… it’s The Eternal Captain Rule. Namely…

“Ignorance of your responsibility to have been the Captain is no excuse.”

The perception is that men always have the personal power to effect change, while women can more easily frame themselves as the victim of circumstance. Therefore, if you’re the husband, just because you didn’t know you were supposed to be the Captain, doesn’t excuse you from having failed as the Captain in the past. Even if having an equal relationship was by mutual agreement, if it all falls apart it’s going to be the husband who carries the most blame for the failure.

I’m not saying it’s fair. I’m just saying what it is.

Just as importantly, the average woman quite pointedly responds sexually to a dominant leading man. Lack of a husband displaying reasonable dominance and leadership is a fast track to relationship failure. Weak and poorly leading husbands may as well be actively pushing their wives into the arms of other men. Women as the manosphere so rightly explains, are hypergamous – seeking strong, powerful, leading men. It’s what they are designed to do, its normal female behavior.

Harsh truth here… complaining about normal female behavior makes you sound like a loser. Stop whining about it.

In the same vein I don’t react with shock that someone was half eaten by their pet tiger. Tigers are created to be merciless, rampaging, killing machines. It’s what they do. Your pet tiger killing you is simply your tiger displaying normal tiger behavior.

So for whatever reason your life falls apart and you suddenly become homeless… odds are pretty good that your wife isn’t going to be homeless with you. If she has a better deal than you she can get to be with… she’d be rational to not bed down in the cardboard box with you. It would be her being crazy to stay with you.

I’m not saying that all women are jaded, gold-digging whores waiting for the first moment of weakness to jump ship to a larger cock… it’s not THAT bad (he said softly massaging his right temple for effect, thinking that the tiger metaphor was perhaps poorly chosen)… but every woman expects you can hold your shit together and be a productive spouse on a routine basis.

The old line is that “women don’t want to win, they want a winner.”

There’s a lot of truth to that, but it’s also worth saying that no one expects you to roll through life like an endless perfect season either. You can even have a losing season…

…but if you do, you better have a plan and a show of confidence that you can turn the franchise around and have a winning season.

Right now…     —–>   Buy the damn book.

Four More Years

Firstly, thanks to everyone who made today the best day of sales for the Pants Book ever. Much appreciated.

Anyway…

My eldest daughter is back from France today. High school French trip. When all said is done, I have a photo of her looking at some French ducks that cost me approximately $1500.

It’s actually been rather odd to have her gone for a week, she’s very introverted and self-sufficient, so it’s not like she takes up a lot of time and effort to manage. She’s so introverted, if we wanted to punish her, we’d send her to a party. I was surprised that I wasn’t a little sad she was gone, but as soon as she was back and completely gone from view into her bedroom… it was an entire week for her crushed up with other people, so exhausting… anyway… as soon as she was home, the house felt right again.

Jennifer was a little “on alert” all week figuring that sub-consciously she was always missing something. She has a far more attuned kid radar than I do, in no small part because I’m mildly deaf and simply never could hear the high pitched voices of children in the middle of night asking for cups of water. I’m a heavy sleeper too, so that just makes any hope of me being responsive hopeless.

In fact one legendary night a couple months back a raccoon got up on the roof and over the course of an hour, tore a foot wide hole in the roof, before hitting a crossbeam and figuring out he’d never get through that and giving up. Jennifer and both girls of course wide awake and in varying stages of freaked out by it. The girls spooked by the noise and Jennifer by the imagined cost of roof repair. I provided timely moral support and comfort by modeling unaffected concern and stability… by which I mean entire time the raccoon was directly over my bed growling and ripping up the roof… I slept the blissful sleep of the AMOG.

Youngest suddenly seems like she’s flipped from that “little kid” into being what looks and sounds like a proto-adult. Every single one of her close friends has in the last year had their parents go into some kind of marriage crisis… or had a step-parent suddenly die. Plus the usual boy trouble woes lol. I’ve seen her look at her phone once in a while with a “therapeutic frown” and vanish into her room… or occasionally… head to the end of the driveway for a good 30 minutes.

I don’t know what she talks about. I think there’s this assumed confidentiality thing where I don’t talk about MMSL peeps to her and she doesn’t talk about school peeps to me.

“Crazy people are crazy?”

“Crazy people are crazy.”

I’m so proud lol.

I’m proud of eldest too, though if she ever practices her “gaping bloody wounds” makeup for Cosplay zombies again without announcing it first, I’ll kill her. Special zombie contact lenses too which are f-r-e-a-k-y. One of the cats refuses to be petted by her anymore.

Anyway…

Four more years of teens and high school and then Jennifer and I are supposedly child-free for the majority of the rest of our life. The kids will always matter of course, but I won’t lie when I say I’m looking forward to it being just the two of us. We had this weird courtship in separate countries and just got married cold turkey so to speak. I don’t advise that as a plan lol. But still, we got lucky and it worked and in four years we’ll be mid-forties and done with the kid phase. After that…

…I think I’ll ask her out and we’ll start dating.

 

Why When They Finally Act Right… It Pisses You Off

Forum question…

Reader:  For those who have issued a for-real A or B ultimatum: have you experienced lingering resentment?  Either from your spouse (“remember that time you told me you’d divorce me if I didn’t give you BJs?”) or within yourself (“I can’t believe he was only willing to work on our marriage when I threatened to leave him!”).

I’m just wondering how this goes.

Athol:  It’s fairly normal to have a wave of anger hit you when they “finally” start acting right.

The longer it’s had to build up, the bigger the wave of anger is. It’s pretty much along the lines of “Why did I have to threaten you with divorce before you started start acting right? Now that you’re acting right, I can see that you had it in you the WHOLE TIME to act right and that pisses me the hell off!”

I see it a lot in the wives who finally see their husband acting Alpha and attractive… and then she suddenly flips out and nukes. Often it’s just as he’s getting his crap together and really feeling a sense of inner Alpha too. It can cause a terrible mixed message as it turns into a punishment for good behavior and it can undo a lot of positive progress made as the natural inclination is to throw his hands up and say, “What the fuck do you want lady?!?!” and quit trying.

As long as they are acting right, you kinda have to let the anger go. It’s not unhelpful to actually say that you’re experiencing a wave of anger about the situation, but refuse to go on the offensive about it.

i.e. “I know you’re doing exactly what I’ve asked of you, but at this moment I’m actually experiencing anger that it’s taken so long to have that happen. I’m not mad about what you’re doing *now*, I’m angry about what you did *then*.”

Also the further down the MAP Phases you’ve had to go, the more anger and frustration you’ve experienced, so the bigger the blow back anger is going to be when they finally start behaving properly.

They of course will always resent you putting them in a position where they have to change or lose you. People always resist difficult changes and personal growth. But the truth is, most of them aren’t happy about their situation either, so if you can get them to a position where the marriage is much better, they’ll be happier too… and embarrassed by what you had to put them through for them to finally start acting right.

She Comes Fourth In Your Life vs. Children Come First

One of the fun things about having a co-ed forum is sometimes you see a woman and a man say exactly the same thing. Word for word. Just one favors men and the other favors women.

Male: A slight variant on the classic Patrice O’Neal line about making your woman, the fourth most important thing in your life. The order being, (1) You, (2) your mission, (3) your blood relatives (Patrice just said his mom for #3) and then finally (4) your woman.

Female: “I will never put a man ahead of the children. The children always come first.”  Hmmm…. well then, one also imagines if she is the one that decides whether or not something is in the interests of the children, she also trumps both the kids and him. Which suggests an order of (1) Her, (2) Shoes, (3) the kids, (4) that guy that’s always here for some reason.

So…

Well that ain’t going to work if you both decide to play the same strategy of my way or the highway. What immediately begs the question is what happens if someone else comes along and offers the #1 spot to your #4 slot spouse? If only for… oh…  five minutes or so?

You have to consider that for someone to allow themselves to be the 4th priority in your life, they need to be about in the range of 2 points of Sex Rank below yours. That’s a healthy Orbiter distance. I doubt a learned MMSL reader would allow themselves to be so taken for granted.

The Order of Priority

Assuming no one is toxic and needs to be treated with purposeful distance…

Athol:  Self Care > Husband > Father > Son > Brother > Friends > the rest of humanity.

Jennifer:  Self Care > Wife > Mother > Daughter > Sister > Friends > the rest of humanity.

If you notice, Jennifer and I both have each other in the #2 spot. Frankly neither one of us has the interest or ability in micromanaging the others day and self-care. We obviously care about each other, but at the end of the day, if I turn into a complete douchebag I expect to be jettisoned from the marriage. Likewise Jennifer may not turn into a Beluga Whale without me authorizing the self-destruct sequence and heading to an escape pod. We hold each other to high, reasonable and positive standards. It’s a really easy way to live.

The Captain and First Officer differences kick in at the Husband/Wife role position. After that we’re parents and so on down the line. We have a very clear order of priority and mutually understood chain of command. It makes things so easy to manage.

Anyway…

All I know is that all these women proudly saying “the children come first” are keeping me in business.

Because you know that somewhere in the background there’s a hollow-eyed man raking the leaves out of the gutters… thinking about what he just read on MMSL… and how he’s sick of her not fucking him right.

You can say “the children come first” all day long. The husband always hears it as “you’re last in line.”

When they start having an affair, they won’t even need to hide it from you, because you don’t notice them anyway.

Exact same thing goes for husbands with the super Alpha careers. Little woman at home wondering if he’ll ever call or show up for dinner on time. That shit gets old fast. Let alone telling her his mother trumps her. Gotta sting like hell to hear that. Thank God for Facebook and old friends…

 

There is No Female Action Plan

A mildly disjointed collection of rantings trying to bitchslap the proper understanding of what running the MAP is, into the minds of the wives on the forum. Somehow there’s this understanding that the Red Pill is in fact pink, and all they need to do is grow long hair, put on some lipstick, fall on their backs with their legs apart, and their Alpha Prince will cum.

Except all that happens when they do that is their fat, underemployed ManBetaPig just enjoys the sex and then lights up a joint and plays Diablo 3 for five hours. I exaggerate to be sure, but that’s the essential problem.

So… ranting…

There is no “FAP”

The only difference between what a man needs to be doing and what a woman needs to be doing is what creates a dopamine response in the opposite sex.

Male Alpha = more dominance, power, strength

Female Alpha = more flirty, girly appearance

That’s about it.

If you’re a female running the MAP, you should have men other than your husband throwing IOI’s at you. If you don’t, you’re not yet in Phase Three.

Why the “default yes” is a bad thing

It’s basically like dumping three tons of fish into the dolphin tank at SeaWorld and wondering why the dolphins are no longer interested in doing any tricks.

If your wife is into you, she doesn’t need a rule to want to fuck you.

Serendipity gets it

 Serendipity: Yeah I learned the hard way that sex = everything is fine, but even when he wasn’t getting sex he didn’t seem to care and just gave up.  MMSL helped me understand WHY I didn’t want sex with my husband for so long when early on in the relationship I definitely did. I couldn’t understand what changed and lack of sex was something my husband complained about forever and I always thought it was the kids, being tired or whatever it was. Now I know why.

So despite my FAP I had to add in an ultimatum because there was some medical involved (anxiety/depression) and possible porn addiction (since deleted and seems done with).  If anything the FAP, some therapy and this site just really made me realize what my worth really is and that I was/am doing everything to fix my marriage and relationship. Been very loyal when other women may have had an affair of some sort.

Athol’s comment: “The central theme of MMSL is to get yourself into a position where you’re so valuable as a potential partner, that you no longer are required to tolerate being in a relationship with a crappy partner who refuses to handle their own shit.”

That’s exactly what did it for me. I got fed up. I was fixing my shit and now it was his turn or else I was leaving.

Female desire is reactive, but…

Female desire is reactive… but there are other men out there she can react to.

If a male 6 watches his wife transform from a 6 –> 7 –> 8  and does nothing about fixing his attractiveness and handling his shit, he’ll eventually lose her to another man if she decides to pull the trigger.

Maybe he does shape up / get to the doctor / get a job / stop being an ass…. maybe he won’t.

If he does, great. If not, well she can collect child support and be better placed to find another man.

That should all sound very familar.

If he’s freaked out and going full Beta…

When he goes full-bore Betamax you bring him to MMSL. Then he takes it all seriously because he has a pathway he can learn to walk where she ends up staying with him.

All the husbands brought to MMSL by their wives come freaking out and wanting to go full Beta. Then they learn.

Wives must work on looking hot

She absolutely must run girl game and spend more time at the gym no matter what.

Unless she maximizes her overall attractiveness to men in general, any ultimatum she pulls will be less likely to succeed.

Her hot gym body is her leverage.

If his dick doesn’t work

The ultimatum is you demanding he go to the doctor to get checked out

Stop listening to the men on the forum, they aren’t your husband

A forum wife who has a crappy husband, listening to a forum husband in a sexless marriage, can’t model her MAP on what he wants his wife to do. The problems are different.

It’s always the unhappy spouse that comes to the forum. The unhappy spouse always has to do the same thing – become attractive and strong enough to gain leverage in their own relationship and then if required, force the issue.

Why sexually rejecting  totally crappy husbands can be helpful over the long term

It’s not “rejecting him”.

You are making yourself more attractive – improving the quality of the cheese so to speak – and rewarding him when he acts in a positive manner.

“No X until Y” is training him to act in a certain way…. but so is “Yes X even if there’s no Y” training him to act a certain way.  It’s just training him to act a different way.

Most of the forum wives doing the “default yes” thing are simply running a variant on a covert contract. “I will X and you will Y” and then because X is given out before Y… Y doesn’t have to happen… so the wife gets pissed off and then can’t help but lower her sexual response to him.

Most women unwittingly ruin the sex as a reward by being so shitty in bed during the sex, that it becomes a form of punishment rather than a reward. Most guys would rather have 12 sexual experiences a year where the girl was really into it, than 120 sexual experiences a year where she lies there disgusted and immobile.

Offer high quality sex for his good behavior.

There’s no X until Y

I mean seriously. Would any of you as a mother walk into a grocery store and hand the kids a bag of candy and say “please be good” and then no matter how bad they were in the grocery store, do the same thing week after week after week?

If you’re a First Officer you’re meant to be able to stand in for the Captain if need be. Get a backbone, have some pride in yourself, have some standards. Stop this Nice Girl crap.

You wouldn’t let a random douchebag screw you, so why do you lower yourself to let the douchebag you live with do it?

Could you ever imagine Jennifer tolerating me being a drunken, unwashed, broke, loser and still fucking me every day? If you can, she wants to talk to you lol. We hold each other to high but not unreasonable standards. I am a better man for her and she’s a better woman for me.

That’s the MMSL model. I’ve been ranting this for over three years. I’m at a loss as to how my message is so distorted on this forum.

Jennifer: Damn straight. That is all.

Everything Is Better Except I’m Not In Love Anymore

Reader:  Okay, I was a beta schlub. That seems to be so far in the past now. I am reading the post on GNO and the man trips and am thinking, if my wife really wants to mess up, I am fine with it now. I won’t put up with it, I will just move on to another woman if that happens. I am content with my wife. She has a lot of great traits. But so do lots of women. I would be giving up some good stuff and a little bad stuff for new good stuff and bad stuff. I am not about to burn my marriage down, but I look at other options as possible if she decides she wants something else.

Have I gone too far in my thinking now? Is this too much lack of oneitis? I am just so far removed from my divorce is always the last option mentality of two years ago.

Athol:  I think there’s always a mental dip in love feelings as you run the MAP. If you’ve had your illusions shattered and figured out you did a bunch of stuff wrong in your relationship, it’s always hard going to own up to it and fix it. Usually there’s a sense of hope and progress as you turn things around, but it’s just not the same blind joy in your relationship you had before. It’s definitely better than the bad stuff that was going to go down… it’s just not as giddy as when it all started and before you realized it was almost about to all get flushed down the toilet.

Oneitis and the Alpha Widow effect are damn near the exact same thing, just two different terms to spin it into the frame of the man better. It’s basically just a high dopamine, low serotonin mental state and looks damn near the same as OCD focused on a person. It’s called falling in love.

That being said, learning the whole Red Pill point of view where everything gets boiled down to chemical reactions and you can consciously start doing things to manipulate your feelings, and your partner’s feelings…

…well after a while it starts seeming like the entire concept of love is all bullshit. Not only that, your entire relationship history was just slot A, tab B and a bunch of chemicals. If it’s all just this giant game, love dies. It’s all fake. Cause, effect. That’s it.

The good news is that you manage to fix your relationship and change all the structural stuff in your life Everything turns out better. You get on great. Sex is up. Kids are behaving better. More respect at work.

It’s just….

…meh.

Everything is meh.

In time though, especially once you start really mastering what you’re doing and understanding about Alpha Beta et al, and you have your structural stuff together… you’ll start to forget you need to game each other. You’ll just be doing what you need to and getting on with it.

Then you’ll read something about some other couple with some kind of freaked up problem and you’ll look across the living room and tell your partner about it. They’ll look back with that “WTF” face and come over and read it over your shoulder and groan at the cluelessness with you. Their hand will be on your shoulder as they read and for some reason, their cheek is so very kissable…

The truth.

The truth…

The truth is that anyone who tells you that Oneitis can finally be killed, is either a badly damaged individual with serious attachment issues, or someone still working their way through the process. Quite obviously the goal of learning Game is not to turn yourself into a Cluster-B personality type, but to discover and master a relationship skill set in which you can love in relative safety of not being taken advantage of. For most of us though, getting to the end of the process is something that can take several years. It takes a long time to unlearn everything we did wrong, stablize and then learn what we need to and have it become second nature.

The truth is that all those chemicals… they. feel. so. real. and. you. cannot. stop. them.

The truth is you can resist all you like, but attraction is not a choice. So you will feel love again. You can’t choose not to feel.

The truth is love will come back.

***

Though I do have one caveat about all that in relation to the woman you are with…

…she needs to be a First Officer worth a damn.

***

Video related / unrelated.

Captain and First Officer When The Marriage is Slamming Into Icebergs

Some follow up from the last two posts.

(1)  I’ve had a small explosion of email, messages and forum comments of people vomiting their guts up about their own personal Elephant in the Room. This is all good.

(2)  I’ve also had a fair number of emails and comments to the effect of, “Okay I admit to having screwed it all up, having missed how unhappy she was. But then she did [totally inappropriate behavior]. Am I really to blame for all that?”

Too long didn’t read….  hit an iceberg and it’s the Captain’s fault.

Long answer… and please, remember this is a blog post using the broad brush…

Whether the husband knows it or not, and even whether the wife knows it or not, almost always their biology is going to assume a male Captain, female First Officer arrangement. We can fill our heads with anything we want to believe about relationships, but for almost all of us, when the going gets really tough, our Body Agenda simply asserts itself and starts making making decisions based on a Captain and First Officer model.

Or put another way…you can have a wonderful equal relationship for years on end… but when something really blows the hell up… *poof!*  suddenly you’re the Captain and she’s the First Officer.

I realize that sounds like a terrible cop out I’m handing the wives, but I’m just saying that this is exactly what happens routinely in times of relationship stress. This is exactly what women are designed to do. Women are programmed on a deep biological level to seek out and attach themselves to men who are “winners”. So when you suddenly start racking up some serious losses, women start reassessing the entire relationship.

That reassessment isn’t a hair-trigger thing. You’re not going to be dumped for one bad day or individual failure. Wives look at their husbands a little like a sports fan following their favorite team. You aren’t expecting a perfect season, but you want to at least see some sort of reasonable hope that this year you could get to the playoffs… and if not this year, at least it looks like someone made some coherent choices about it being a rebuilding season. But obviously watching endless grinding failure after failure… well it’s all hard going continuing to follow this team if you know what I mean.

So all usually goes quite well for a while, until there’s some sort of terrible screw up. If the screw up is hers, suddenly she’s the First Officer and she cries her eyes out and limps to the Captain to save the day. If the screw up is his, the First Officer thinks the Captain is an idiot and expects him to clean the mess up… and if the clean up isn’t good enough… it’s at this point she starts checking out of the marriage.

So almost always, the critical error that starts the real relationship momentum downwards, is the husband’s.

And once again just to be clear – that sounds like I’m blaming the man and giving the woman a free pass – I’m not, I’m just explaining what actually happens. I get that on a rational level as you read it, it’s insulting to both men and women.

So there’s some sort of critical incident that happens, and it’s very likely a completely legitimate “Dude WTF were you thinking?” incident, that the wife is pretty well justified in feeling hurt or angered by. Then the checking out process starts for the wife and the relationship starts to decline over a period of months, or vastly more likely… years.  During that time of decline, the wife is typically making several attempts to signal her unhappiness with her husband, but they also are typically not heard well enough for the husband to recognize and make amends.

Eventually enough attempts to communicate that go unheeded take place and the wife gives up on the relationship completely and stops making attempts to signal distress. Typically at this point the husband can mistakenly believe the relationship has improved because she stopped complaining. In fact though, it’s in a very bad place. Once the wife is fully checked out, that’s when all the truly nasty stuff that a wife who holds her husband in contempt starts happening. The lies, the cheating, the divorce papers, the gathering up the children and fleeing out of state et al. This often takes him by complete surprise because he thinks the relationship is fine.

So… let’s assign the blame…

For the husband, whether he knew it or not, he was always the Captain. He was always the one more responsible for the relationship outcome than the wife was. Just like in any other team arrangement, the team leader is more responsible for the team than the other team members are. So the totality of the marriage is more his fault than her fault. This is an extraordinarily bitter pill for a man to swallow in the aftermath of the failure of his marriage.

For the individual critical incident where the husband screwed up, well obviously that’s his fault. I think that’s simple enough to understand.

The failure of communication about her distress to him, is again his fault. It is always the team leader that is responsible for a team’s communication. Likewise if a team leader screws up something, it should not require dramatic efforts on the part of a team member, to draw the team leaders attention to the mess. My advice in my last post, How To Fair Warning a Husband That Doesn’t Listen (Before Things Are Too Late To Fix) , lays out some suggestions for dramatic efforts for the wife to gain her husband’s attention when he is ignoring her.

In terms of all the crazy, nasty, evil shit the wife did when she’s checked out of the marriage…all of that is her fault. She’s making conscious choices when she fucks around on her husband et al.

Plus by the time the relationship is really getting bad, both parties are usually treating each other with varying degrees of anger, insult and contempt. That’s equal blame.

In terms of cleaning up the mess and starting over, that’s a whole other post’s worth of stuff to get into. Suffice it to say though, without a clear admission of wrongdoing and genuine apology for their part of the mess, it’s not going to work very well as a clean up. There’s always something for both sides of the couple to be genuinely sorry for, before major relationship drama can be gotten past and healing take place. I strongly advise NOT to try and persist in rebuilding a marriage after an affair has taken place, unless both the cheater and the betrayed spouse can understand their roles in creating the situation where an affair happened AND they make a genuine admission of apology.

Unless you can find the root cause of the affair (Often it’s The Elephant in the Room) and fix that, you’re very likely only going to have a temporary lull in the decline of the relationship.

But don’t misunderstand this point either. Sometimes so much damage is done as the relationship falls apart, that one or both halves of the couple simply cannot move past it. There may also have be serious structural changes happening that impede fixing things. Genuine apology is never a bad thing, but it’s also not a magical cure either.

That being said, I’ve seen MMSL work some impressive recoveries.

Explaining more… buy the book.  Need support… join the forum.

How To Fair Warning a Husband That Doesn’t Listen (Before Things Are Too Late To Fix)

One of the common beliefs in the Manosphere is that men are calm, rational, thoughtful creatures, and that women are emotionally driven and irrational. The common word used to describe the pseudo rational verbiage to support the decisions of an emotionally irrational mindset is called The Female Rationalization Hamster. It’s where women manufacture all the crazy bitch parts of their personality.

It really is true. Women have a large part of their brains devoted to all these hamstering thoughts. It’s called a Neo-Cortex… which is obviously quite confusingly the same place men do all their calm, rational, thoughtful thinking too. I might have noticed it before now myself, except my hamster told me not to look too hard and not worry about it, because it probably makes better sense as a paradox.

Anyway…

Men clearly, just as women do, have massive hamsters capable of the most amazing rationalizing nonsense you can imagine. As soon as a guy gets a touch of Oneitis for a girl, his mind spins an endless whirlpool of her charms and finds reasons to love her even more. The guy that circles the hot girl as her Beta Orbiter, has a constant internal chatter… “Hovering about her forever and masturbating in secret is a fantastic plan that will pay off eventually.”

That whole thing where Nice Guys spin up covert contracts in their mind that their wife has no idea about? That whole contract was spun up into existence during a conversation between him and his hamster. “If I just do even more nice things for her, then she’ll have to fuck me won’t she!”  “That’s exactly right!” said the hamster, “Pure genius!”

Anyone who has ever said, “No. I know my wife really well, she would never cheat on me”…. squeaky squeak squeakum. I’m totally serious on this one. There are some men who even in the face of some pretty blunt evidence, deny that their wife is involved with other men. As in really blunt evidence. As in “Dude, she left in a huff for three nights, she’s on the pill but there’s an empty box of condoms in her car, there’s thousands of text messages to a number you don’t know.”

Or how about the standard line of guys saying to themselves… “Look I know she’s married, she’s the one that wants to cheat on her husband. If I don’t sleep with her, some other guy will anyway.”  “Exactly,” said the hamster, “you’re not a douchebag at all. In fact, you’re probably stabilizing the marriage and doing the husband a favor!”

And the most important one of all… “Only women have hamsters, men are the rational ones.”  “Exactly!” said the hamster, “you can see on the MRI the tiny little walnut size of the female brain, and when you put a male in the MRI scanner… well… it’s just supermassive in comparison. Obviously two completely separate branches of evolution took place here.”

 So… here’s where the husband’s hamster screws up the marriage…. and why the wife screws up her communication to the husband.

The only reason that really motivates a man to have an interest in a woman is sexual. I realize I’m painting with a broad brush here, I’m sure all you ladies reading have wonderful appealing personalities and whatever else it is you think you bring to the table. Trust me… your wonderful charming man that’s great with the kids… he married you for your pussy and that’s about it.

As long as he’s getting pussy from you… his hamster tells him he’s in a good relationship. Things are going great.

Now this is where the wives come in and screw it all up. Women talk about everything. Non stop. Endlessly. Continuously. Some of it’s good stuff, some of it’s bad stuff, there’s a lot of drama, a lot of emotion in there too. The wives Fitness Test and Loyalty Test and whine and nag and complain and recycle arguments from twelve years ago. Then they bring up something that happened five years ago, to another couple she knows, applies their situation to your relationship as a hypothetical scenario, which you fail to take seriously enough, which ruins a perfectly good ride home from her mother’s house.

After a few years of marriage, most men start experiencing the words coming out of their wife’s mouth as of form of white noise. It’s all just talk.

And there’s still sex once in a while, so… his hamster tells him he’s in a good relationship. Things are going great.

Then something happens with the wife and she finally stops being a whiny bitch and cuts back on the white noise.

And there’s still sex once in a while AND she’s stopped complaining, so… his hamster tells him he’s in a really awesome relationship. It’s never been this good.

Then on a perfectly normal Tuesday, everything explodes. Divorce papers / affair discovery / Restraining Order / she flees with the kids / something else really beyond the pale. Cue up the stunned and enraged husband…. “WWWHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!!?!!?!?!?!?”  “Exactly.” said the hamster shaking with liquid anger, “after everything he’s done for you over all these years. Suddenly I see you for the evil gold digging hypergamous whore that you are!” 

For some reason I always hear the male hamster as being voiced by Steve Urkel. Try it. Say that line in your head in Urkel’s voice. “Why Laura… After everything I’ve done for you over all these years. Suddenly I see you for the evil gold digging hypergamous whore that you are!”

So ladies. Bless your hearts. I get that you were unhappy about things, but you were simply talking to a man you knew wasn’t listening to you. Then periodically you’d give him sex, and tell him by your actions that things were still okay. Then you nuked the entire relationship into the ground by you doing something totally over the top, and instead of trying to fix a relationship with your orginial problem set, now you’ve added a second set of issues and things are much worse.

So the real question is what works to get through to a husband that things are really NOT going well in the relationship. That you have a genuine, major and reasonable complaint that must be addressed. I’m not talking about dumb stuff like “The kitchen cabinets need refinishing”, I’m talking about stuff like, “It’s been five years of erectile dysfunction”, “We’re losing the house”, “You’re addicted to gambling.”

Well what does work are the really serious stuff like – divorce papers / affair discovery / Restraining Order / she flees with the kids / something else really beyond the pale. But those are all problematic and damaging… though do notice that they are all actions as opposed to talkSaying “I want a divorce” carries next to no weight compared to being handed actual divorce paperwork to sign. 

Some suggestions….

(1)  Separate the bedrooms.

(2) Remove your wedding rings.

(3)  Ask him to move out.

(4) Tell him that you are not in love with him anymore.

(5) Lock him 100% out of your online presence and communication devices.

(6) Have either his father or your father tell him you’re on the verge of leaving him. (Authority figure + not a “white noise” female talking)

(7) Tell him you are starting to consider sex with other men.

(8) Shouting out for myself, buy him the Primer and tell him to join the forum.

(Related post: http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/09/what-your-partner-reading-mmsl-really-means/)

(9) Start running your own MAP and immediately hitting the gym and looking better.

(10) Investigate your state’s divorce / alimony / child support laws, and figure out the math on what he’d be likely to have to pay, based on a 50/50 custody agreement and non-combative parting of the ways. Give him the number.

I would also recommend doing several of those options in one heavy hitting strike. Your goal is to hit him so hard, that it bypasses his hamster and makes him sit up and take it seriously. Yet also that it’s a non-fatal blow that doesn’t then create additional problems to clean up. He’s meant to feel exactly like he heard a gunshot and felt the whistle of the bullet go right by his head. He’s meant to be freaked the hell out and start going into panic mode.

After that? Well I don’t know exactly what happens. He might pull his shit together, he might not. All I can say is most husbands when push comes to shove, really do want to fix things with their wife rather than call it quits… the odds of that being much better if she keeps the moral high-ground and he can see she was warning him out of loyalty and love, rather than cutting and running to another guy.

Men really do love their women.