What It Means When She Tells You She Kissed Another Man

Most people are basically moral. Meaning faced with a moderate degree of temptation, they will still do the right thing anyway. There are some crappy people in the world that don’t ever experience temptation, because they have no moral compass and just do whatever they want all the time. Most people are moral… but not saints… everyone has their price where they become okay with doing evil.

For example, ask me to kill a kitten… and I’ll say no. I happen to like kittens. Ask me to kill a kitten for $100 and I’ll still say no. It’s just cruel to think about. $1000… ah… no. $1 million bucks to kill a kitten… and… well… how many dead kittens do you need?

So let’s consider how the morality sliding scale works with affairs. Let’s create a fake couple Anne and Alex and the third wheel Brad and watch the slide from White (morally good) to Black (full blown affair)

White – Anne and Brad know each other and nothing questionable is happening between them.

White/Grey – In this transition point, the first crossing of the line happens between Anne and Brad. Usually it’s simply a low key feeler thrown out from the guy to the girl. Something “non-serious” and easily disclaimed as an accident or no attempt to be offensive. Failure to knock the feeler back by the girl is implied acceptance of the advance to Grey.

Grey – This is the zone where Anne and Brad know that something inappropriate is happening between them, they don’t want Alex to find out about it, but it’s also reasoned as being ”just flirting”, “not cheating”, “harmless fun”. Except it’s not really any of those and is being kept secret. At this point it’s an emotional connection and not physical.

Grey/Black – Anne and Brad kiss. This marks the transition into the affair being more physical. It may not turn into sex with the first episode of kissing, but it can escalate very quickly to sex after the first kiss. It’s a major hurdle to cross.

Black -  Anne and Brad are now in a full sexual relationship and there’s a huge desire to hide it from Alex.

The idea for Brad is to navigate Anne through the scale of white to black at a steady pace, without stalling in any of the areas for too long, but not so fast that she hits a moral limit she isn’t prepared to break just yet. So he shouldn’t stall out too long for going for the kiss, but also shouldn’t go from introductory flirting to asking her to suck his dick either. (Try not to think of me as just having given advice on how to seduce someone’s wife, and more explaining how they do it.)

Now from Anne’s point of view…

White – Nothing is inappropriate, I love Alex. Brad is okay.

White/Grey Rejects Brad – I love Alex, Brad was rude.

White/Great Accepts Brad – I love Alex, Brad is funny.

Grey – I love Alex, but I’m falling in love with Brad.

Grey/Black Rejects Brad – I love Alex, I want Brad but I just can’t do this.

Grey/Black Accepts Brad – I love Alex, but when I’m with Brad I feel amazing, I can’t not do this.

Black – I love Alex, but it’s fading and I’m not in love with him. I’m in love with Brad and I’m starting to love him.

Importantly, if Anne rejects Brad at the White/Grey or Grey/Black transition points, there’s minimal chance she will tell Alex what happened. Most of the time he will never find out anything was happening. If it’s at the White/Grey line, there’s nothing to see and nothing to tell. If it’s at the Grey/Black line, all he’ll know is that she was a little distant there for a while, but then she stopped being a little distant. He quite possibly never notices anything was going on.

Far more interesting is if Anne tells Alex she’s been doing something inappropriate. This is always an ass backwards ultimatum and Fitness Test from her to him. It looks like a confession, but it’s far more than that…

Fitness Test angle first. Brad already knows about Alex, and has been making headway on Anne by indirect and stealthy means. So he does not want a confrontation with Alex. Alex however doesn’t know Brad is making headway on Anne, so he’s not paying particular attention to mate guarding Anne. So Alex is the sleeping Samurai, while Brad is the sneaking Ninja. So when Anne confesses to Alex something is happening with Brad, it’s like she suddenly flips the lights on and it’s all on…. Yo Samurai… there’s a Ninja…Why don’t you and him fight.

Whoever has the strongest overall male frame/presence will carry the day. If Alex turns into a spineless writhing blubbering weakling in front of Anne and weepingly begs her to come back to him… she’ll find a way to go back to Brad. If Alex suddenly reacts with controlled fury and seeks to defend what’s his, Ninja Brad will drop a smoke bomb and vanish.

Ultimatum angle second: Anne let Brad get as far as he did, because there was something lacking in Alex. Look I know that’s hard to hear, but it’s true. So not only does Alex have to puff up and scare Brad off, he’s also got to figure out what Anne is giving him an ultimatum about. She was prepared to risk the entire relationship by telling him about her thing with Brad. If she didn’t want to put the relationship on the line, she would NEVER have told him, she would have just broken it off with Brad.

The good news is that Anne does at least want to have a relationship with Alex… provided of course he fixes the problem.

The bad news is that when she told him about Brad, it was a fairly sanitized version of what really happened. Alex must always assume that worse things happened and find a way to divine the truth as best he can. If it was a case of she slept with Brad and then “gets away with it” by Alex taking her back without knowing, she’ll not respect him.

So Alex must immediately (1) get the other man out of the picture, (2) scare Anne half to death that he’ll possibly divorce her (she will fail to respect him unless he does that), (3) start fixing whatever structural weakness he has in holding Anne’s attraction.

And just to be clear, I’m not saying get in there and start trading punches… as tempting as that may be. I’m saying gather your information and find a way to get them not wanting to be together.

 

New Year’s Eve and It Just Happened

Slightly out of context…

Reader:  I have also discovered that there’s another guy on the scene she’s been seeing behind my back messages on Facebook meeting up with him when supposed to be visiting friends so things could get interesting.  Do I tell her I know about this guy or keep quiet and work on my MAP and win her back?

Athol:  Also added into that concern was that Christmas is coming and he doesn’t want to ruin it for the kids. Plus based on Facebook messaging it only seems to have been some “drunken fumbling” so far. No actual sex.

Yes you do work on your MAP and get yourself as attractive as possible, but with another man active on the playing field, you need to actively intervene on that as your first order of business. Skip to Chapter 27 in the Primer and follow that. Once all the drama and dust settles, women typically will gravitate to the male with the most dominant approach to the situation. Gather your information and make a move to stopping it.

If you don’t intervene, you running the MAP isn’t going to work. She’s already getting her Alpha fix from someone else, leaving you only a Beta supply role. You can up your Alpha all you like and she won’t notice she’ll be so busy creating space between you. The sudden threat of ending the relationship and removing her entire Beta support system in your justifiable anger typically snaps a wife’s attention back into proper focus. The boyfriend is typically in no position to really offer her a Beta support structure, meaning the failure of the affair as a relationship. It usually takes the betrayed partner’s unwitting Beta support to sustain the affair.

Also it’s very tempting to drag the chain a little and keep the peace until after Christmas. I must strongly advise against that. The longer you let it go, the greater the likihood that the Emotional Affair, turns into a Physical Affair and that makes it a great deal harder to reign back in and repair. I would also assign a 100% chance that if the affair is still active by New Year’s Eve, that it will be fully sexual. She’ll just stage a big fight about something, storm off and make a beeline for him. You’ll be home alone with the kids and knowing exactly what is going down. New Year’s Eve is just one of those “the rules don’t apply” nights of the year.

She was having a good time, she had a few drinks, they were dancing, the ball dropped, it was meant to just be a little kiss, but then it wasn’t and “I don’t know. It just happened.”

So dig up the dirt and blow it all into the open as soon as possible. I’m told there’s quite a sizable divorce filing spike in early January each year. Tick Tock.

Girl Thinking About Having Coffee With Plate Spinning Ex-Boyfriend

Plate Spinning = The practice of a single guy keeping multiple women in a soft harem arrangement. Initial effort to get each woman up to speed and spinning on the end of his… er… stick… and then consistent occasional effort split between them all to keep them all up in the air for him.

Anyway…

From the forum… behold the hamster wheel doing this…

Sparrow:  Yesterday was…a trip. This is a bit disjointed; I’m in an emotional tailspin and just bought a bag of cookies. I could use some advice. Even if the advice is: Sparrow, you’re an idiot. And, wait, you acted like that? And, what is your SR again? Just, please, if you do think I’m being that silly, please tell me why I’m being an idiot and not just “yep. Silly birdie.”

Some background: I once dated what is commonly referred to as an asshole alpha. I (unknowingly) shit tested him into beta. I kept breaking up with him and we got back together three times in three years. To this day, I’m not sure if he’s emotionally abusive or has some kind of Cluster B issue. I think it’s a strong possibility, but I also know that, especially towards the end, I was being a bitch. After last breakup, I spent a fair amount of time apologizing because I figured out I was a bitch. Including once, memorably, on my knees. Yes, I did the whole submissive posturing thing. Apology accepted. Then I went abroad for a year (and got more religious over the period of time). Thought I was done with the cycle. During that time, my former best friend carried on an fwb situation with the fellow at the same time he was e-mailing me asking to make up.

I know I handled a lot of it badly. We started dating when I was 19. This was the second guy I ever kissed. Aside from all the emotional stuff that went on, the physical stuff (sort of sex?) was…Really Good. Ok, so I pretty much went from 0 to 500 in this relationship, and have no real basis of comparison, but as far as I can tell, sex type stuff was really good for both of us. Emotionally: good to ok to godawful. Chemistry: through the roof.

Eventually, sort of made up with the friend. She asked me to be a bridesmaid at her June wedding (she’s engaged to a different guy). *sigh* I said yes. Except, she also wants my ex boyfriend in her wedding party. The guy is a starving musician trying to make it big and currently has a harem of six, not counting the ONS. She asked me to play nice. So, Monday, we were all in the same place at the same time. I’m so much on edge that I can barely think straight, but I did my best to be friendly. Boy tries to give me (and assorted other female types) a hug before he goes; I take a step back. Boy asked if he could call me to get a cup of coffee next time he’s in town.  I said: ok.

I called later that night because I wanted to understand what his intentions were. After some phone tag, he said he missed having me as a friend in his life and would call about the coffee next time he were in town. Except…we never did well as friends. That’s one reason why we kept getting back together.

So I’m confused. Is he actually serious about the coffee? I’m a bit skeptical about the friend bit, but he’s also incurably honest. Is he trying to gloat? Be friends? Add me to the harem? Get back together? And how much are regular awesomely good sexytimes worth? I don’t know if you want to label this as, “idiot hamster can’t step away from alpha,” or “ex-stupidity,” or, “bad relationship cycles,” or “what’s the worst that could happen?,” or “men and women can’t be friends” or “Sparrow thinks about sex too much” or “get out and date other guys” or what. I’d just like to know what you guys think is going on. Help?

Athol:  Oh coffee…. why are you so delicious?

It sounds like you have a lot of attraction for him, but it never sounds like it was a good relationship with him. You can’t be his friend, because you’re attracted to him and he isn’t remotely interested in just being your friend, so it’s always going to escalate in the direction of the bedroom. You may have tested him into Beta at the end of your last try with him, but if he’s spinning six plates these days, I doubt he’s going to revert to that for you. So your relationship options are (1) A 4th round of a really bad relationship, or (2) don’t have a relationship with him.

Anyway, I’d write more, but I’ve had this song waiting in the wings for the correct post for THREE YEARS.

Oh and @ your girlfriend… having the prior (?) fuck buddy in the wedding party. Stay classy girlfriend.

Why She’s Silent About Why She’s Divorcing

A woman Jennifer knows is divorcing. Being a busybody that likes sticking his nose in, and relationships generally being my pet interest…

Athol:  “Why is she divorcing?”

Jennifer: “Don’t know. All I know is that she’s divorcing.”

Athol:  “She isn’t blaming him for anything?”

Jennifer: “No, just keeping it all very quiet.”

Athol: “She cheated then.”

Jennifer: “Huh? What makes you say that?”

Athol: “If he was doing anything wrong, she would have told everyone in the world what it was. Which means she did something wrong… and it’s over. So he caught her cheating.”

Jennifer: “Wow that’s a bit of a leap. Just because she isn’t running him down doesn’t mean she cheated.”

Athol: “Can I have lunch with her then?”

Jennifer: “$%^& NO!”

Athol: “Why?”

Jennifer: “Okay so she must have cheated.”

Athol: “Exactly.”

Jennifer: “Yeah yeah.”

 

Why Wives Avoid Raincheck Sex With Their Husbands

A basic male complaint is that a wife routinely refusing sex with her husband, will come up with all sorts of nonsense to make sex not happen. This angers the husbands to no end.

The logic is pretty simple…

(1)  We are married. (2) The purpose of being married together is to have a sexual relationship. (3) When you refuse me sex, you’re avoiding holding up your end of the bargain while I still have to earn money, fix the house and mow the lawn. Therefore, (4) you are a total bitch.

Makes perfect sense doesn’t it, but it still can’t be a correct understanding of the situation, because if the wife routinely seeks to avoid sex with her husband… it doesn’t explain why she does that.

Even worse is some nights she says she almost wants sex, but not quite, and then she offers him a raincheck of sex the next day. Then when the next day rolls around, she completely avoids sex yet again. This really pisses the husband off and makes her seem even more of a bitch.

So let’s come at it from a different angle….

Imagine you’re a husband and you watch your wife get all dressed up in some fairly revealing clothing and her best makeup job, to go for a Girl’s Night Out at a local bar. A bar noted for being a total sleazy meat market. When she leaves, you experience stomach churning dread that The Very Worst Thing In The World (TM) is going to happen. Some other dude is going to take his penis, put it in her vagina, and she’ll get pregnant to him. Thus making you a total failure in getting your genes spread into the future generations. Do. Not. Want.

Now imagine you’re a wife and your unattractive husband comes up to you and asks for sex. That would mean some repulsive loser is going to try and put his penis inside your vagina and you might get pregnant to him… which would be The Very Worst Thing In The World (TM) to happen to you. In would result in a crappy kid, who would likely fail to get your genes spread into future generations. Do. Not. Want.

That stomach churning dread she feels when her unattractive husband comes on to her, is the exact same reaction husbands have when she wants to disappear on a Girl’s Night Out.

This is why you can’t logically argue your wife into having more sex with her… because it would be from her point of view, completely illogical to have sex with you. In fact it would be pretty stupid of her on a biological level to risk it.

This is why when she offers “I’m too tired today, I’ll have sex with you tomorrow.” She never has any intention of having sex with you tomorrow. It’s just a ploy to get you to not have sex with her tonight.

Thus your solution isn’t to throw a fit, get in her face, or be threatening. Oh that can work, but it’s a very short term response as she’ll attempt to cut you back off as quickly as she can. The long term solution is to become attractive as you can be. The cockblock is you.

Now if you run the MAP and get in great shape, earn more money and generally get your crap together… objectively maxing out your attractiveness… if she then still turns you down, well then you can go back and apply the  initial logic that sums out to her being a bitch that just isn’t into you. If your attractiveness is maxed out, there’s nothing more you can do to evoke her sexual interest in you anyway. So that’s the call it quits point. She just doesn’t want to have sex with you.

If you run the MAP and become as attractive as you can be, either she responds to you and sex starts back up, or she doesn’t because she never will… which leaves you at the peak of your attractiveness and far better able to find a new woman to love and want you. Either way you win. It’s just not a quick fix or easy. But it does work.

Buy the book. Get started today.

 

Fitness Testing vs Loyalty Testing

I’ve had a long email exchange over a few days now. At first it’s mildly tedious as I answer – yet again – the basics. But at the end is a moment of zen as the student teaches the teacher and a new term is created…

Reader:  I was thinking that there are two types of beta – good and bad.   Now, though, after living through this, i wonder if alpha/beta is more alpha/something else, eliminate squirrelly beta behavior.   All the behaviors you say to stop should be stopped. Grow a backbone. Don’t ever do something she can do herself. Pick up the kids. That’s not the task. Pick up the kids when her idiot boss keeps her late at work. That’s a no-brainer, and you do it because it needs to be done. It’s not the same thing.

Relationship comfort is not picking up the kids because her boss in an ass. Relationship comfort is based in making sure she knows she’s your Number One. It *is* the loyalty factor.   Our wedding rings and engagement tattoos are claddaghs. Love is easy. Friendship means we like each other and respect each other on another level. Loyalty is both sexual and social. Monogamy. Mate guarding. Direct expressions of husband/wife-dom. None of these are beta activities. They are neither alpha nor beta.

You may have a x/y/z rather than an x/y formula, with x and z being desired at high levels, and y at low levels.   Just a thought.

Athol:  Alpha = attraction = dopamine

Beta = comfort = oxytocin

Physical = horny = testosterone/estrogen

“Bad beta” is basically something that looks like it might be good Beta, but wrapped up in a total failure of Alpha.

Good Beta = me finding two perfect jackets to go with Jennifer’s polka dot dress as a surprise and time saver.

Bad Beta = Jennifer ordering me to go find her a jacket to go with the dress in a shitty tone and me going off and finding something for her.

It’s really more a failure of Alpha than bad Beta though.

Reader:  So you don’t agree with the “too much alpha” and loyalty tests, or what I’m talking about isn’t related?   I’ll figure this out… it’s just not clicking yet.

Athol:   Can a man be too rich and powerful? Too strong?

He can be powerful but then lack enough Beta to make the woman comfortable he isn’t just going to dump her for someone hotter.

Reader:  Ok, so it’s still just alpha and beta, but there’s good alpha (wet panties) and bad alpha (asshole), good beta (loyalty) and bad beta (doormat).

Heh. The model holds up. Yup, I’m Virgo rising. Gotta deconstruct everything. ;)

Athol:   No…

Good Alpha (strong dominant = wet panties)    Weak Alpha  (doormat)

Good Beta (looks after you)   Weak Beta (doesn’t do anything helpful or nice)

You just see a lot of   (Good Alpha + Weak Beta) guys   and  (Weak Alpha + Good Beta)  guys      that’s where the confusion comes from.

Reader:  And where does asshole come in? Personality disorder? Lol

Athol:  An asshole is someone you want to give you Beta attention who doesn’t.

Reader:  lmao! Yup!

Reader:  Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!! I got it!!   The loyalty tests really rang true. I never really thought I was shit  testing, but I knew I was testing *something*.

So, is it this??

If the Alpha is high but bad or not enough Beta, it’s a loyalty test.  If the Beta is high but bad and the Alpha is low, it’s a shit test.

Did I finally get it right?   We’re just very open to talking about this in shared terms, and he had  been trying to respond to what I now think are loyalty tests with the  proper beta shit test response, which threw me further down the pit,  thinking he was fixing to leave me. So, they’d backfire until he  finally sat me down and said something completely profoundly loyal.  And I’d be okay in an instant. So, I was thinking that since he’s  heavy Alpha, there had to be something else at play. But, it’s simply  that either his Alpha was incorrectly played, and/or his beta wasn’t  there.

We’re officially living together now, and all this has gone away.  Well, most of it. I still have residual fear, but when he’s right  there to look me in the eye, he doesn’t even have to say anything  anymore. I get it. He’s not going to leave me. And now I’m pushing him  for more Alpha. heh. Go figure. ;) Stupid hamster.

Athol:  Actually all this makes a lot of sense. I’ve been arguing for nearly three years that Alpha and Beta are two separate traits of behaviors, yet only have Fitness Testing as a single term for ”acting out” behavior. Which means I’ve been kind of saying saying two things can be a problem, but there’s only one reason women can get upset. When I say it like that, makes me sound like an idiot lol.

I have talked about why wives can start getting withdrawn as their husbands improve their Sex Rank and start pulling ahead of their wives in attractiveness, just didn’t have a term for it. I think Loyalty Testing is a good one. A wife can be plenty attracted to her husband, just terrified of getting cheated on or dumped. There’s Dread Game where you inject a little of that into the mix and get a positive reaction, and then there’s losing hope that she can be anything other than a victim to his whim for how the relationship plays out. When that happens she pulls back, shuts her vagina down and braces for the emotional shotgun blast to the chest.

Which is exactly why when a wife Loyalty Tests her husband, and he bumps back on her and acts aloof and unaffected by her like it’s a Fitness Test, it makes things significantly worse between them. Playing hard to get when someone is desperate to see loyalty is the completely wrong thing to do.

So… new rules and terms…

Fitness Testing and/or ignoring you, act more Alpha

Loyalty Testing and/or clinging to you, act more Beta

If I Was Single, Would I Bang Everyone?

Serenity:  Yes, Athol, but I’m not talking about the woman’s perspective here.  I’m talking about the man’s.  Heck, being blunt…I’m talking about you  as someone I’ve grown to respect.  Okay, really over-stepping the bounds here, but do you feel this way?  If single again, would you sleep with a million women just because you could? Would it really be no more than body parts to you?

Athol:   It’s not over stepping bounds to ask.

If I lost Jennifer….

My Plan C:  Okay this is kind of just a fantasy one lol. I’d run a free service as a sperm donor for infertile couples. Doing it the old fashioned way as the bull. The ovulating wives would get dropped off by their husbands, I’d bang them silly and then they’d leave all knocked up. Then I’d sell DVD’s of the whole studfucking thing online. I’d have to have good lawyers though lol.

My Plan B:  I would run a soft harem approach. I’m not into a notch for a notches sake, but would escalate things very quickly if I was interested in someone and drop them to the bottom of the list if they weren’t terribly responsive.

No woman is just a body part to me. I love them, that’s why I’m so good with them. I mean if I liked having sex with them, why wouldn’t I keep doing it with them?

You also have to remember that I have a crazy high sex drive. I’m consciously and actively limiting myself to just Jennifer and that takes constant mental effort. I love her dearly and only my wife goggles for her makes it seem like that a deal worth making.

My Plan A:  I would visit [late virgin forum member I've seen photos of] and see if there was chemistry there. I believe she would be loyal and worth the risk.

Importantly though, I’m so committed to Jennifer, that even in my fantasy where I have sex with other women, she has to die first and I have an appropriate grieving period before I go all cockzilla. That’s true love right there.

Jennifer:  I think if either one of us dies the proposals will come thick and fast to the survivor.

Hmmm….

Mate Guarding For The Win (And Wetness)

Here’s the scenario, some dude makes a fairly direct move on your wife in front of you. Some responses from the forum…

 

sf64:  On Saturday night, 5 guys asked “I” for a dance.  Five times, she declined.  She never looked to me for guidance, my opinion, or for me to say anything.  She just politely turned them down.

One of them was not taking no for an answer.  I stood up, put my hand on his shoulder, looked him in the eye and said, “The lady said no.”  He looked at me, said, “I’m sorry” then turned and walked away.

 

RedPillNewb:  Mate-guarding can be seen as a strong, Captain-y thing to do.  It may be that your woman doesn’t actually want to dance with this loser (or go to Vegas with Queen Bee, or go to the GNO), but is too polite and people-pleasing to say no.  So she counts on you to say it for her and protect her from the social embarassment of rejecting someone.  That can make her feel protected and safe thanks to her manly man.

 

Fredless:  The three of us were out to dinner, along with my wife’s and my two sons.  Friend is talking about a sandwich shop that he loves that neither wife or I have heard of.  He looks at my wife and says, “I have to take you there for lunch.”

My wife nodded and went about her dinner, thinking absolutely nothing of it.  About 18 months ago, I would have done the same.

This time, as soon as he said it, I stared at him–looking right in his eyes.  It was clear that I was not pleased with that invitation.  He stammered over his words and then threw out, “Yea, we’ll all have to go.”

After dinner, I let wife know I wasn’t pleased with Friend’s sandwich shop invitation and she clearly had no idea what I meant.  I told her I trust her completely but no man is going to ask my wife out, particularly with me sitting right there.  I pointed out how he changed the invitation right after I stared at him.  She did remember Friend changing the invitation.  She didn’t even know I had given Friend ‘the look’ and asked surprised, “You did that?  Just stared at him?”  [note:  obvious gina tingles were now emanating from my wife].

 

Athena:  There was a new guy at work a while back, who was kind of feeling out all the women, probably to see if there was any interest. He hit on me out of sight of my husband, which I of course shot down, but I told him about it right away.

I guess “mate guarding” describes what my husband did in response at a work social function. He got very physical and made sure new guy saw him kissing, hugging me, etc. Complete with a couple of stare-downs. Honestly, it made me giggle at how AMOG he was trying to be.

But it worked, because the new kid wouldn’t even make eye contact with me for a month! And when he did have a legit reason to approach me with something work-related, he took it to my husband first!

Be still my heart…if he only knew how hot that was!

 

Maria:  Knowingly hitting on someone else’s wife/girlfriend is a challenge. Always. It has to be met appropriately by display of strength, not fear or indifference.

 

Kar:  We were out at a fancy event seated at a table with a business associate of my husbands. Man is married but his wife was not there (he frequently leaves her at home-what does that tell you?), anyway, Man says to my husband in front of entire table and loud enough for all to hear, Wow, (MY name) is looking so hot tonight, I may just have to hit on her later.”

This dude does cheat on his wife. My husband points his finger at Man and says, “NO! Don’t talk that way about my wife. Not cool.”

I actually really liked this. I felt like he was protecting what what his, A, and B, not allowing this man to disrespect me.

I’d like to add, (since this happened to me), that when my husband responded that way, the man put both his hands up, palms forward and back-peddeled fast, “Okay, I’m sorry, I meant no disrespect.” He looked like an ass, and my husband looked like the Alpha one. Yeah, it made me wet.

Was my husband afraid I might actually want to be hit on? Or even possibly cheat with this man. Um, not a chance. It was more about him not allowing this guy to talk about me like one of his many other use-them-for-sex targets. He demanded respect for me. HOT!

 

Pastorgeek:  Always mate guard. Always. Vary the intensity according to the situation, but always guard. From The Look to major force, just understand the consequences of anything beyond The Look.

 

Kort:  My husband has never mate guarded and I kinda resent him for it. I can think of times when I felt actively threatened by another man who was making a move on me in front of my husband. The first time was when a male friend of ours crawled into bed with me while I was sleeping, cause he and my husband wanted to see what I would do. I cuddled with him then woke up enough to tell him not to wear clothes to bed, realized it was not my husband and freaked out. My husband was standing in the doorway laughing like he was going to pee himself.

A more recent one was when we were out with friends for karaoke and there was a guy at the bar who wouldn’t take no for an answer. He tried to pull me out of my chair and my friends boyfriend decked him. My husband told me he didn’t bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn’t have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down.

So, yeah, mate-guarding can be very important.

 

Linanati: I’ve found that if a man is pursuing me, it’s much, much harder for me to put a stop to it than it is for my husband to do so. When it comes from me, the guy will often think he can change my mind if he persists. Every time my husband has gotten involved, the other guy has immediately backed off. Based on that, I think that, as long as it isn’t taken to irrational extremes, mate-guarding is an alpha behavior.

 

Athol:  Saved the most important two for last…

 

Danceny:  Men don’t often make “direct and open challenges” IME; they make slimy, plausibly deniable, tacit or “just being funny” challenges.  They observe the woman’s and man’s responses and then escalate to something a shade more overt, and repeat.

An important distinction bears reiterating because a lot of Red Pillers miss it.  An Alpha is aloof/indifferent to women’s emotions; he is NOT aloof to interloping males.  Just look at primates.

sf64:  IMHO, there really is only one way to ‘mate guard’ and that is to have a clearly higher sex rank.  If you are a 5 and your wife is an SR7, you have a big problem.  If an SR8 takes a hard run at her… she is going to at least think about it.  Now, if your wife is an SR7 and you are an SR8, she might be susceptible to an SR9 or SR10, but in reality, an SR10 is not likely going to be interested in an SR7.

 

Athol:  Danceny is 100% correct that most hitting on your wife in front of you is not going to be a direct request for her sexual attention. It’s going to be some kind of subtle teasing, put down, flirting, whoops-I-didn’t-mean-it-serious comment. It’s always serious. It’s just him testing the fences like the raptors in Jurassic Park. Put him on your mental list of shitheads to keep an eye on forever.

Likewise sf64 is correct that ultimately, the best defense is a good offense. Keep your Sex Rank up as high as you can. As long as you’re trumping her Sex Rank a little, she’s not going to be nearly as willing to risk ruining her good deal for a one time upgrade.

The real risk of your Sex Rank falling below your wife’s isn’t having to fend off guys hitting on her in front of you. It’s her hitting on them.

 

Oh and ladies. You can mate guard too. Don’t just sit there while some bitch starts putting her grubby little paws on your man. Defend what’s yours.

Follow Up: Torn Between Wife and Girlfriend

Back in early May I wrote What To Do When You’re Torn Between Wife And Girlfriend. The short version being a guy was torn between two women and I talked him though the options and which I though would work best.

I had a lot of negative comments about the original poster on that blog, because obviously he was cheating on his wife. I also had some negative comments directed at me for not reaming him out for cheating on his wife. So much so that I wrote a follow up post explaining why I seemingly played him soft.

Positive and Productive… the good bits…

Now the purpose of other people expressing moral outrage, is to get you to change your behavior by evoking shame or guilt. When this happens, typically you experience one of two reactions. (1)  You fold up like a wet napkin and admit to your badness, or (2) you engage your Rationalization Hamster and deny you did anything wrong. If your reaction is (2), then you change nothing about your situation and never return to Ingrid Von Banhammer’s blog because obviously she’s a heartless bitch.

My assumption is that when you write to me about a problem, you’re already unhappy about the situation and motivated to change it. Thus I don’t need to jump up on a soapbox and try and shame you into changing your behavior… because you’re already motivated to change your behavior. All shaming you does is make you defensive and thus less likely to change what you’re doing. The question is simply what do you need to do to to solve your problem and be happy?

I get that if you’re used to arguments for sexual ethics based on a pre-existing moral position, my approach seems extremely counter-intuitive at best and sinfully depraved at worst. Just bear with me, with a little patience you might be surprised at how often I can explain that doing “the right thing” is the answer to the problems caused by doing “the wrong thing.” But if the comments drive the readers asking the questions away, they will likely continue doing “the wrong thing.”   Or put another way… if MMSL was a credit counseling blog, it would be really unhelpful if some comments just said the reader was just fucking stupid with their money.

And we never heard back from the original poster again… until today…

Those who commented earlier on this post may be glad (or disappointed) to know that I ended my relationship with my girlfriend two months ago and have recommitted to my family. My wife and I are engaged in counselling. After two months, and still-unfinished grief on my part, we’re not yet back to “normal”, but we’re quietly convinced we’re on the right track and are determined to succeed. My wife has been a heroine throughout all of this: unstinting in her devotion to her (undeserving) husband of 20+ years and our children.

All in all, fabulous news and everything going as well as can be expected. Yes it’s hard and non-perfect but it’s on track and heading in the right direction. So glad to hear back that things are on the mend.

In terms of the grief, often people leaving an affair and returning to their spouse have no one to grieve the loss of the affair with. So the pain and longing never go away. So while this is very counter-intuitive, if your wife is able to tolerate it (and she may not be), if you can cry with her, it’s very effective. On one hand it releases all that pain you’re holding onto, it makes you feel accepted and forgiven, and your partner sees you letting go of the affair partner in real time. It’s just a very intense emotional experience.

Swing by the forum. There’s more support that way too…for both of you.

Jennifer: The whole grieving thing is painful but a positive step.  You are giving up a relationship that you were very invested in.  For your spouse it’s another twist of the knife to see how much you grieve for the affair partner relationship, but it’s also a step in the right direction if you can see it as such.  He chose you, even though it wasn’t easy, and he’s working on getting back to a life centered on your marriage.

 

 

 

What Your Partner Reading MMSL Really Means

So you either found your husband or wife reading MMSL, or they told you about it. If you’re mad as hell, or freaking out about it, this post is for you.

So…

(1)  It’s okay to be mad. Being mad about finding my material in your spouse’s possession is a completely normal reaction. What you’re experiencing though is more properly called the “flight or fight” response, meaning you’re not so much angry, as you’re feeling threatened. MMSL covers some happy stuff and some very dark topics, so your first few glances at MMSL might truly freak you out as to what your partner is reading and planning to do.

(2)  Your partner came to MMSL with a serious relationship concern. I don’t have some massive advertising campaign dragging in people off the street, your partner found me by sitting down in front of the computer and starting to search for an answer to their relationship concern. That problem pre-existed them looking for MMSL. If your partner came to MMSL, don’t kid yourself, you have a serious relationship issue happening right now.

(3)  Good news. Your partner went looking for a solution to the problem online. Often the problem is sexual in nature and they went looking online, instead of simply searching out a more practical and immediate sexual experience with someone else. Your partner came here to research a solution and not to cheat or end things.

(4)  If you’ve noticed recent positive improvements in your relationship, that may very well be related to your partner finding MMSL and applying the advice here. Your partner might also be acting more confident and self-assured. They also have probably started working out and are looking better too.

(5)  Very often when people come looking for a solution to their relationship problem, the problem has existed for a while, but it’s the existence of a potential affair partner that brings it into a crisis point. MMSL has a very strong anti-cheating approach to working on your marriage. An affair just needlessly complicates recovering a marriage, and an affair typically implodes anyway during a divorce process. Very often MMSL readers detach themselves from potential affairs in favor of working on the marriage.

(6)  The other thing that pushes relationships to a crisis point is one partner starting to give up on the marriage and start actively thinking about divorce. MMSL gives a plan of action to correct things. Likewise running the MAP slows the rush to divorce down and creates a plan of action to hopefully fix the relationship issue before divorce is seriously considered.

(7)  Wives in particular tell their husbands about MMSL as a fair warning of impending doom. If you are such a husband you need to take her telling you about MMSL as the first, best and potentially last warning you will ever get from her that your marriage is in serious trouble. Often husbands are totally shocked when what they thought was a happy marriage is cut off at the kness by divorce paperwork, or discovery of her deep involvement with another man. Maybe 10-15% of wives give a seriously blunt statement of unhappiness to their husbands before taking dramatic action. If your wife tells you about MMSL, she’s giving you a gift.

So what to do now…

(1)  You can read the blog in it’s entirety, starting back in January 2010, or the better option is to buy the MMSL Primer on Amazon and get all caught up in a day or so.

(2)  Start talking with your partner about how bad, the “bad” really is.

(3)  Join the forum. Hundreds of helpful people are there turning things around too.

(4)  Start working out. If you’re in bad physical shape, fitness is going to be a major thing you need to work on over the coming months.

(5)  If there is any hint of your partner having an inappropriate involvement, demand that they break off all contact with the other person. That’s absolutely critical to you fixing things for yourself.

A final warning…

MMSL is powerful. I know that sounds like I’m tooting my own horn, but it really is genuinely powerful. I’ve seen some remarkable turnarounds in relationships, so there is hope. I have also seen some relationships end as well. However, MMSL tends to be a polarizing influence, relationships get a lot better, or head toward resolution. So consider that you have a time limit to get yourself in motion.

We do better on the win column than the loss column though. A lot better.

And seriously, buy the book. It’s well worth it.