Why The “No Divorce” Belief Can Ruin Your Marriage

Okey-dokey, I gotta talk about this post on The Bible and Divorce over at Alpha Game.

And as my standard disclaimer when I talk about religious thought – I’m an ex-Christian and now an atheist so be advised. I don’t care about any particular belief about God / Jesus / The Flying Spaghetti Monster / The Star Goat of Thollian IV, my only interest in religion is how it affects your marriage for better or for worse. I’m not debating belief, just pointing out what I see. It’s up to you guys to figure out how well my thought meshes with your religion.

Anyway, here’s the original reader question…

My marriage is in bad shape. I have dug pretty thoroughly and do not believe there has been any actual sexual activity by my wife with anyone else. However, I have discovered other things that cause me to seriously doubt whether this marriage can ever rise to the level of mediocre. I now see her with eyes of contempt mixed with love (still). It’s a weird/unpleasant combination.

I would greatly appreciate your views on what are biblically solid grounds for divorce. I have come to the edge where I am about to prefer divorce over trying to rebuild/game up/man up/whatever. However, my preference does not matter if it violates God’s commands. I would rather suffer in obedience to God than seek pleasure in rebellion.

Minus the question of my view on biblical grounds for divorce, I hear this exact same question from a reader about twice a month. “I’ve tried everything, but I can’t divorce because I’m a Christian. What do I do?” So this isn’t an academic question to me, it’s a real world issue and I do my best to help out. Unfortunately the “no divorce” rule makes Christian men very resistant with doing what they need to do to fix their marriage. They always worry it’s going to crash and burn into a sinful divorce. So they play it far too safe and end up bringing a banana to the knife fight.

Here’s the key problem that Christians miss with their “no divorce” platform. Once you remove the possibility of divorce from the equation, there is no longer an effective consequence for what would otherwise be a genuine relationship breaking problem. Which means relationship breaking problems can never effectively be addressed and end up simply being tolerated. Oh sure you can beg and plead and pray and take her to the elders and they can frown at her yada yada yada, but that’s all just talk and making threatening gestures with the banana. Like she cares about that. Thus the “no divorce” platform can actually be a significant causal factor in a really shitty Christian marriage.

Let me explain…

Jennifer and I love each other a great deal and there’s not a whole lot we wouldn’t do for each other. But we both have a great deal of expectations about the other, that we know are simply deal breakers if broken/not met. For example, if I ever hit Jennifer in anger, I’m pretty damn sure that it’s over between us. No counseling, no thinking about it, I’m just a bit too big compared to her for her to ever relax around me again. It would be over. Jennifer can hit me once. I don’t know why that is, I think because if she ever hit me I would have earned it by not listening for way too long and generally being an asshat. But hit me twice and it’s over. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. No hitting. End of discussion.

We also have an agreement that we’ll both work. Sure Jennifer and I slack off once in a while and do nothing, but that’s a rest after a long period of working. If that rest turned into a consistent pattern of one of us just slacking off and doing nothing much, that’s not going to be tolerated. We don’t have to be making a ton of money, we just can’t be permanently lazy. If lazy goes on for long enough, the other would start getting unpleasant about it. Ultimately if the other person downed tools and refused to pick them up, I don’t see that lasting much more than a couple months before divorce would be coming to the surface as a considered option. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. We’ll both work and hold up our end of the marriage. End of discussion.

We also have an agreement that we’ll both stay basically attractive to each other and have a strong sex life. Jennifer knows that if she just lets herself go and/or stops being a fun sexual partner for me, I’m gonna head for the door. I also know that if I become a crappy sex partner for her, she’s not going to be able to be responsive to me the way I want her to be. I’m not going to reasonably expect her to be into me if I’ve let myself go, or if I’m cruel to her. So I treat her very well. Our marriage is a sexual relationship, that’s why we’re married. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. Sexy Time is very important. End of discussion.

So our standards and willingness to enforce genuine relationship breaking issues with the ultimate consequence, means that we never actually develop those relationship breaking issues. Our willingness to divorce, averts divorce.

But, if Jennifer figured out that I would never, ever, under any circumstances divorce her because of my religious beliefs, that would allow her a lot more leeway on those standards of behavior. Maybe she could scream and yell in the kitchen about something. Maybe she could bounce a cup off my head on alternate Tuesdays. Maybe she could come home one day and tell me she just quit her job because it was all so tiring and made her unhappy. Maybe she could put on 100 pounds. Maybe she could cut me back to once a month sex. Maybe she could take all the money and go shopping for cute outfits for her little purse dog. Or maybe she could buy $1500 of Mary Kay cosmetics to “start her business” and only sell $40 worth to her mother.

Or based on the emails I get… she could do all of that at once.

Because I would never be allowed to divorce, can you see how I’m screwed? I can’t really do anything to stop myself from being trapped in this horrible marriage. I mean what I am going to do? Ground her? Be mad? Sure I can make myself look sexier and all hot, but that’s no threat if I can’t leave her and hook up with someone else. I’d have to just stick it out and love her unconditionally.

Do. Not. Want.

See how blindly being on the “no divorce” platform can ruin your marriage?

So let me come around at this from a different angle to hopefully help my Christian friends understand this better. The original guy’s key statement is this…

“I would rather suffer in obedience to God than seek pleasure in rebellion.”

Dude you have it backwards. As the Captain of the household, you are responsible for the safety, well being, happiness, and overall functionality of your household. Complaining that your wife is crappy isn’t very Captainy. My hunch is that your actual problem is that you’ve been asleep at the switch for the longest time, too frightened to actually stand up for yourself. You’ve been without effective demands for some basic standards of behavior and she’s just run riot on you. Your whole marriage is like trample porn without the nudity.* Whether you want to admit it or not, she’s always looked to you to act like the Captain. It’s not 100% her fault that you’re in this pickle. Some of it is her fault, but some of it is yours… and because the Captain is always more responsible than the First Officer, it’s more your fault than hers. The Captain is last off the ship and doesn’t ask for a legal loophole to allow him to be first to the lifeboats. That’s what being the Captain means.

Or put in Christanese… you’ve been disobedient to God the whole time you haven’t been taking responsibility for your marriage. You’re in rebellion now.

And yeah I know what Jesus said, but he wasn’t giving advice in a Marriage 2.0 world was he. Maybe he would have said something different if the wives could call the Roman soldiers in to arrest their husbands for not appreciating the meatloaf appropriately. As it was, a divorced woman in Jesus’s time was pretty much going to have to learn to turn tricks, which literally sucks… so I’m with JC on that one.

So my advice is pretty simple, put things right. Both in you and in her. Set some standards for behavior for each other. Allow time for everything to work itself out and change direction, there are no instant fixes with marriages, but you can greatly improve things. If you put in the proper effort with the right attitude, you have a reasonable chance of making things better. If you do all the right things and she proves herself to be utterly defiant and unwilling to hold up her end of the marriage agreement, that’s her choice to make and you may as well accept it. If so, then just let her go and be Gods plan for feral cat colony management.

Jennifer: The whole no divorce thing is important because you can’t over react to every little thing and reach for the divorce button. I don’t worry Athol would ever leave me for something silly, but there’s plenty that can go wrong in a marriage that isn’t cheating. We respect each other.

* No offense intended to believers of The Star Goat of Thollian IV

 

The New Life, Wife and Masculine Style

Athol:  One of the things I’m clear about with MMSL is that if you run the MAP, there’s not a 100% chance your wife will respond positively to your efforts. All I say is that if you pull yourself together, someone will respond to you. Which is why Phase Seven is called “Your new life… and maybe new wife.”

So here’s Tanner Guzy, one of my blog friends from a few years back, who went all the way to Phase Seven and lived to tell the tale…

Athol:  What brought you to seek MMSL?

Tanner:  My foray into the Manosphere was probably fairly typical. I’ve read GQ and Esquire for a while and happened to see a link on Esquire’s page to the Art of Manliness. I devoured that site when I first found it and was pretty active in the comments and the forum. One day there was a comment by some kid that really struck home for me. I don’t know what he said or even who the (now defunct) blogger was but I followed his profile to his own site. From there I found Hawaiian Libertarian and the whole Manosphere opened up to me. Being married and a Mormon I could see the truth in a lot of what guys like Roissy and Roosh talked about but I wanted a better understanding of how it could apply to me. Dave from HL was married and had some good posts and thankfully he also linked to MMSL. It was nice to see a site that had already done the legwork of converting Game into a marriage-friendly concept.

Athol:  How did MMSL help with your first wife?

Tanner:  It would be a lie to say that MMSL, Game, and the MAP didn’t help with my first wife. However, there was more of an impact on me than there was on my marriage. I was able to start improving myself and implementing small things; setting better boundaries, not falling for every fitness test, and keeping a better frame. However, where it really helped was in letting me realize that the success or failure of my marriage wasn’t entirely my responsibility. I grew up in a culture that emphasizes the responsibility of manhood and the man in the marriage. Unfortunately, the culture of Mormons (especially in Utah) is about equidistant behind the rest of Christianity as the rest of Christianity is with the rest of Western Society. Basically, it’s still a doctrinally patriarchal church, but the culture is seeking more and more ways to rationalize those uncomfortable truths. This put me in a pickle because it meant that divorce was always the wrong answer. Now I know that’s not the case and there are even times when God will allow divorce in order to allow parties to move on and prepare better environments for their future children.

Athol:  So having come to the point of divorce, what did you do?

Tanner:  Making the decision to file for divorce was incredibly difficult. What’s difficult about it now is telling it in a way that doesn’t sound cold or calculated. There was one night about four months before I actually committed to file where my wife and I had some sort of petty argument. I left to go to a friend’s house and when I came back she was gone. She sent me a text message informing me that she’d be at her parents’ until further notice. It ended up being a full week without any contact. The sad thing was about two days in I had gotten home from work and was sitting on the couch with my dog. I realized that the house was cleaner than it had been for months because I was cleaning it myself, my dog was more relaxed than he’d been since we got him, and I was more comfortable and happy than I’d been at any point in our four-year relationship. I hated that feeling. I didn’t want to be happier with my wife gone. I wanted to be happy with her. I wanted to be relaxed with her and feel like my home was a safe haven from the battle ground that is the outside world. But it wasn’t. That week was when I really started considering divorce as an option and decided I’d put it on the table.

I spent countless hours fasting and praying trying to make the right decision. We saw a counselor and I kept implementing more of what I learned from reading the MAP and other sites. I started looking deeper into the doctrines of the Church and what its official, not cultural, position on marriage was. Every day it seemed like I came to a different conclusion until finally I realized that all my wife’s attempts to improve things were really just a token effort. She never really accepted responsibility for her part in our failed relationship and continued to expect me to be the one to make all the real sacrifices to make it work. Eventually we both realized (me before filing and her long after) that for years we had only been married and working on our marriage, it had nothing to do with each other. The final thing that made the decision for me was the thought of bringing children into that family. I was willing to accept responsibility for the decision I had made to marry, but I wasn’t willing to subject my children and her children to that just because we were too proud or too scared to split up before they arrived. So, after four long, miserable months I decided to file and end things.

Athol:  What’s different about your new marriage?

Tanner:  The differences between my first and second marriage are night and day. I’m the king of my castle and my wife actually gets treated better than any woman I’ve ever been with, even in my bluest of blue-pill days. The big difference is that I’m good to her and she’s good to me out of a sense of love and mutual respect. It’s very similar to what you and Jennifer have. With my first wife, any expression of love or affection was like paying taxes – I did it because I knew there’d be hell to pay if I didn’t. But now, it’s like donating to charity, I give up something of myself because I want to.

On top of how differently I treat my wife, I also expect that same treatment from her. I’m quick to compliment and I’m quick to correct if I need to. The great thing is how much my wife loves and appreciates me for it. She looks up to me and respects my opinion. She also knows that I listen to her and her opinion even when I make a decision that is counter to her. She trusts me because I expect that trust, not because I’m supplicating and asking her how I can earn it. She loves me because I’m actually attractive to her. While we may talk about what does or doesn’t work in the bedroom, we don’t have to talk about what I can do to get her going or why she just can’t feel sexy when the dishes aren’t done and other things like that. Having a marriage that’s based in proper gender roles makes things easier and happier for the both of us. It’s not one of us being happy at the expense of the other.

Athol:  Tell me about Masculine Style.

Tanner:  Masculine Style is a blog I started almost a year ago to help red-pill men learn how to dress better. There are dozens of men’s style blogs and magazines out there but they’re all tough to read because of the way they write and appeal to men. One thing that can be hard about taking the red pill is learning to still read and accept the opinions of those who haven’t. When it comes to things like sentence structure, content choice, and reasons to dress well, it’s difficult to read a lot of other sites. Dressing better is also one of the easiest and most neglected aspects of the MAP (you’ve even admitted to this yourself). However, the reason it’s so difficult is because the decline in societal masculinity has also effected a major decline in men’s conscious concern for their appearance. It’s something that the Baby Boomers and younger generations feel like they can’t vocalize any real concern for and so many of us grew up without dads or other mentors teaching us the fundamentals of dressing better.

What started as just a blog has turned into a consulting business. My wife and I just had our first child and she wanted to stay home. So I needed to figure out a way to earn some extra income. On top of that, I wanted to be able to transition into doing something I love. I was more than just a little bit envious when I found out you were to the point where you could do MMSL full time.

So now I’m offering different consultations for men. They can be as basic as telling you what colors and patterns will look best on you based on your build and complexion, or as complex as helping someone with a budget of 12 grand choose every article of clothing that will work in two different climates. Whatever help a man needs and whatever unique situation he’s in, I can help him dress better and increase his sex rank as a result.

Athol:  And for the record, I’m not getting paid anything by Tanner, just giving him a wee push for his new project… and quietly grooming my style minion in case there’s ever a reality show or something. Ya never know lol. (And no nothing is in the works.)

Also, Tanner took the high road in talking about his ex-wife. This wasn’t a walkaway husband for no reason and lets leave it at that. If the best revenge is living well, I think he’s got a good handle on it.

Oh and a pic of the happy couple. She’s three weeks post-partum in the picture, so play nice kiddies.  (Jennifer: Ummm…if I’d looked that happy and fit three weeks post partum, I would have thrown myself a party lol)

Proof Good Wives Are Out There (And How To Test For One)

Sometimes even I get surprised. I was expecting that I was going to get a at least some negative to guarded reaction to buying Jennifer pots and pans (of her choice) for her birthday in yesterday’s post.

Instead this is the reaction I got in the comments, and believe me, I’m not even cherry picking a handful of good ones, this is about 75% of all the comments. Just listen to the women talking here. I’m so tired of being told I found Jennifer riding around on a unicorn. These are fairly standard female MMSL readers and I’m proud of all of them. Perhaps a really cool kitchen item is an acid test you should throw the way of a prospective bride before you sign on the dotted line. Looking back, I’m pretty sure Jennifer would have loved a cool household item from the start.

Kort:  My parents gave me my grandmother’s pots and pans, that still have the warranty on them, for a housewarming gift. And let me know that, as soon as the next piece in the set comes out, they’ll get that for me, too. They are closely guarded and much beloved. I bought myself the expensive vacuum for my 30th. I’d earned it.

Seriously, I love practical gifts. If my hubby got me the non-stick pans I’ve been eyeing for Christmas, it’d be a major step in the right direction. It would show that, after 10+ years, he knows me. Yeah, I’m betting I get the bath and body works gift set that I’m allergic to and a sweater.

Yep, totally jealous of Jennifer. And to all the haters: there is nothing wrong with getting a good set of pots and pans for a major birthday!

Julia:  We’ve usually gone the practical route also; foot massager, kitchen ware, woodworking tools, etc. How much can you really do with a piece of jewelry? At least you still put in the effort to do the gift exchange thing; we’ve slacked off the past few years.

Mike 43:  For one of my wife’s birthday, I bought an expensive mixer. I mean, 300 dollar range. She’d been pining over it for months, so I got it for her.   I let slip that I bought it at work, and the ladies were horrified. But now that I think of it, it may have been of my surety that should would regard it as a great gift, or that she did.   They all asked how she liked it, I just grinned.

Anacaona:  Oh I love kitchen tools! Totally good presents in my book

Shanna:  @Mike43  I totally want one of those mixers! Lucky. (said in Napoleon Dynamite’s voice)  Anyone who would be horrified at that or the pans Jennifer got couldn’t be my friend.  OH and I just got a scale for my bday, too! It tells me bodyfat, muscle, BMI. I love it.  Actually if someone buys you a scale that must mean you’re NOT fat. Because if you WERE fat and they bought you a scale, that’s just rude, right?   Love the ceramic pans! I mean- who wants to die of Dupont Teflon poisoning?

Lindy:  Hubby got me a nice set of stainless steel pots and pans the Xmas before we got married (we don’t do non-stick b/c we’re dirty hippies). I loved it!

Jessie:  Happy Birthday! I always want practical presents, too. I think I’m the only girl in America that would cry if I got jewelry. But I do a happy dance over appliances, knives, etc. And my favorite present ever was my all-clad pots and pans.

Bleeping Slooty:  The best holiday gift I ever got was a Kitchenaid mixer. I hope this Christmas I finally get that sexy Dyson vacuum cleaner. (I have an internet nerd crush on the Dyson vacuum guy.)

Jacquie:  Twenty years ago I was read the riot act by a woman we’d just met and struck up a conversation with in the mall. I mentioned that we were there shopping for a stainless steel colander I’d asked for as a gift from my husband. She tried to make me feel pretty rotten for wanting something practical instead of jewelry or flowers and such, in front of my husband; and went on and on about how if her man got her something practical like that she’d make him wear it. We both remembered that incident recently in our red pill awakening and just had to chuckle. Glad to be here and know we’re not the only ones who think like this.

Wendy:  I wasn’t jealous until I read that they are ceramic. Score! Happy Birthday Jennifer

HeSedSheSed:  Ha. I got a Dyson Vacuum for Valentine’s Day….and I LOVED IT!

Anonymouse:  At least I’m not alone in my desire for housewares as gifts Happy birthday Jennifer!

Stingray:   This is awesome. My husband bought a new carpet cleaner from a neighbor once that he decided he didn’t want after he brought it home. We just bought it from him since he was just going to take it back. My husband told him it was going to be my Valentine’s day present (which we don’t celebrate) and this guy nearly choked to death. “You’re giving it to her for what?!?!?!?!” It was hysterical. And it was a wonderful present.

Practical presents like this are wonderful, especially if they are something you would never spend the money on otherwise or buy ones that are as high quality. It is such a nice surprise to open the box and see something in there you have really wanted around the house, that you have been doing without because it’s not really necessary, but would be oh-so-useful. Those are my very favorite gifts.

Julie:  Great birthday gift in my mind! Ya know what my husband got me for my last birthday? A lovely apron and new dish towels!!!! He got them because that is what I asked for! They were from Williams-Sonoma and not cheap. I love kitchen items for gifts because I LOVE to cook and bake for my man and my kids. I don’t care what anyone else thinks-fabulous gifts for me! I actually don’t want jewelry as with two little boys I am constantly cleaning up messes, changing dirty diapers, wiping up spills, being puked on, etc. Not practical for this stage in my life.

RedPillNewb:  My wife can’t stand frivolous things like flowers or jewelry. I get great mileage out of intentionally outraging other women with stories of my gifts (or lack of gifts). I can’t understand why they think they should be outraged on behalf of a woman they hardly know if that woman doesn’t get something they would want.

RedPillWifey: Nothing wrong with practical. Happy birthday Jennifer!

Jennifer:  Thanks for all the birthday wishes! And yes I would have loved a cool house present from the start…although Athol was the cook at the start of our marriage so I wouldn’t have known what to do with an expensive mixer or something lol…

 

 

 

Unleashing Your Inner Bitch

An old saying that I just made up is “Scratch a lady, find a whore.”

Most married women try pretty hard to be good girls and squish down the simmering primal desires inside of them. In reality, about 60% of the time the Rationalization Hamster is doing things like convincing them to not put a toddler down for a nap by way of a choke hold. 30% of the time it’s trying to figure out what’s for dinner. Only 10% of the time is it trying to figure out how to get some other dude’s semen without being caught by their husband. So relax, it’s really not as bad as you think.

So without further ado ladies, put your hamsters in neutral, relax, sit back and live your primal impulses out vicariously for the next two minutes through ascended master Lois Griffin.  (NSFW)

Anyway…

…I’m not saying add the whole Lois Griffin to your personality, because that two minutes was nothing but her moments of being Batshit Crazy from ten seasons of Family Guy. But she is kinda hot, and if you can admit to yourself you actually enjoyed watching it, maybe you should let your hair down just a little more.

If you wanna know why your husband isn’t paying attention to you, maybe it’s because you’re a little boring. If you’re a total pushover for him, actually testing him a little can be kinda fun for both of you. It’s all about finding the balance. Mixing the Alpha fun and sexy play with the Beta comfort of home and hearth. Always balance.

Unless of course some bitch is putting moves on your man…

Jennifer:  We’re not all high strung drama queens. This is something I’ve had to work on. Some of it is just standing up for yourself and some of it is actually demanding what you want. I’m a stronger person overall these days.

Break The Premarital Sex Rules, Win Valuable Prizes

Reader:  Hi Athol, I’ve reading your blog for a few months now and I’ve gone through some of the archives but I have not seen this question addressed although I’m sure it has.  Do you need to have sex before marriage in order to know you will enjoy sex with that person later?  To know that you have “chemistry”?  Or is all that is needed is two willing partners willing to work towards pleasing each other?  So that in essence, you could have good sex with anybody.

Thank you for your time.

Athol: In short, most penises fit into most vaginas, so it will probably be just fine. If you’ve kissed each other a ton and you feel you have chemistry when you do that, you’ve got chemistry.

But… day-um marriage is high stakes poker these days. So I’m just going to go out on a limb and assume you have, or are about to have, a fiance, and you’re from a conservative religious background.

So….

Rather than reach into the morality bag for a large stick to beat you with, let’s just say that the plan to wait until marriage is called the Virginity Strategy. The basic plan being that if you wait until marriage, you arrive unsullied, without baggage, without bad experiences and with all that pristine sexuality, you and your bride merge easily and happily into a really high quality sexual relationship.

The good news is that really can be all true. The Virginity Strategy really can work out really well for a couple. But it’s not a perfect plan and some people end up with dramatic sexual failures as a result. Sometimes you discover some kind of unknown sexual incompatibility. Sometimes the Virginity Strategy is purposely used by one half of the couple as a smoke screen to hide a known sexual dysfunction or non-heterosexual orientation. I know of several couples where the husband was discovered to be gay after the wedding, one case of micropenis, multiple cases where the wife refused nearly all sexual contact with her husband after the wedding due to prior undisclosed rape trauma. All pretty major problems resulting in the marriage being an epic fail. I’d love to be able to stay that the Virginity Strategy is a perfect strategy, but it’s only a pretty good one.

So my advice is to adhere to the Virginity Strategy, but cover the risks inherent in it by having sex during the engagement. If you want to save intercourse for the wedding night, that’s fine by me, but you should at least have an understanding of how to get each other off before the wedding. You should see that each other has a working set of bits and you’re not marrying into an obvious sexual failure.

The Teachman study suggests the primary benefit of “not having sex before marriage” is the low partner / cohabitation count as opposed to the waiting for marriage part. So if your partner count is just one, whether your wife became your sex partner before or after you married her, has no real effect on the marriage outcome. The benefit is that you married your one and only.

With Jennifer and myself, we did have sex before marriage. Frankly I think that was absolutely vital for us to be bonded to each other to have survived our long distance courtship. To be quite blunt, I think a number of my girlfriend relationships fell apart because I wasn’t having sex with them. I’m pretty damn sure that my first serious girlfriend and I had that as a issue. So sexual activity with Jennifer was I think a key part in making it to the wedding. Yeah we broke the goody-two-shoes rules and it worked out just fine for us.

I also know of a few couples that “did the right thing” and waited during the engagement and one half of the couple simply became impatient with waiting and started having sex with someone else. Yes indeed they cheated and were in the wrong for doing so, but I also think if the other set of rules were broken and they were actually getting laid by their future spouse… it all was much less likely to have turned into a cheating situation. To be blunt, it’s a highly unnatural situation for a young couple to not have sex together for an extended amount of time. There’s a fine line between being “sexually moral” and “modeling sexual dysfunction.”

Bearing in mind that I am an atheist when I say this… a wedding ceremony provides a trivial amount of genuine bonding compared to your biological response to each other during sex. Or as the bible puts it, when you have sex together you become “One Flesh.” So if you want the religious viewpoint, One Flesh trumps anything that happens in the church. Not just by a little bit… by a lot.

What happens in a church wedding, legally bonds you to your spouse in multiple and serious ways. With some degree of irony, what actually happens in a church wedding is simply the frosting covering over a quite worldly contract and you really should have a lawyer present for before you sign. The actual spiritual connection between a couple happens in the Holiday Inn when you told everyone you were going out to see The Avengers again. (See what I did there?)

So maybe I’m just cynical, but I think you should figure out whether or not the One Flesh routine actually works for you both, before you sign the paperwork to change your tax filing status and become co-responsible for each other’s debts.

But don’t misunderstand, I think it’s a very strong benefit that Jennifer and I have only had P-in-V sex with each other. That’s a huge factor in our marriage and a reason why Jennifer is okay with me doing everything I do with MMSL. It’s no secret that I struggle with monogamy on a Body Agenda level, but rationally I know it, and she, has been the making of both me and so much of my overall happiness. That being said, I kinda like that Jennifer was so into me she was willing to break the rules to have me. She kinda likes that I was the sort of guy who made her want to break the rules. Being Alpha is more fun, so you may as well establish you’re a force of nature during the engagement.

Mood music lol…

What Exactly Is A Red Pill Woman?

GMAC asked in passing on Facebook today… “So what is a Red Pill Woman?” in response to someone I didn’t know describing herself as a “Red Pill Woman.” I have to say it’s a great question, I’ve written a lot about Girl Game and Sexy Wives for a long time now, but never actually thought to define what the idealized Red Pill woman is like.

Anyway… let’s have a crack at it.

(1)  Understands that physical appearance and her looks are what attracts men’s sexual interest. She stays in shape and while every waking minute she may not be dressed to the nines, neither does she get mistaken for a slob. She “looks good for [insert age]”

(2)  Understands that all her skills, effort, kindness, intelligence and “inner beauty” et al, is what creates relationship comfort and makes her someone capable of having a functional relationship with.

(3)  Understands that what she does with her vagina always has some sort of consequence.

(4)  Understands that there is a sexual marketplace, and that women have an earlier peak of sexual desirability than men do. That the point (1) stuff comes very easily to young women, and that the point (2) and (3) stuff pays off over the longer term.

(5)  Understands that men are the gatekeepers of commitment and that committed men place extreme value on sexual loyalty.

(6)  Doesn’t need a man to save her from her own folly. Will not tolerate a relationship with a man that requires her to save him from his folly.

(7)  Is aware of her own sexuality and understands what in a man attracts her and turns her on. Namely hypergamy, Alpha Traits, why she may Fitness Test and so on.

(8)  Can delay gratification. Can pass on someone or something that is fun for now, but painful later on.

(9)  Can articulate things that she did wrong in prior relationships. Even if the guy was clearly the greater cause of relationship failure, she can acknowledge things she could have done better, or differently. She can think consciously about her relationships, rather than simply follow her emotions from moment to moment. Has a learning curve.

(10)  Understands that relationships are not static, that effort and intention to maintain them is an ongoing requirement. That while she can reasonably expect the man to take the lead, that doesn’t mean he’s the sled dog and she can curl up and take a nap on the sleigh.

(11)  Expresses genuine relationship discontent, clearly and directly, allowing time to correct the relationship issue. Does not complain to everyone else but her husband, does not act out instead of addressing problems, does not plan and/or execute an exit strategy before stating her discontent.

(12)  Lets go of resentment for relationship issues that are now resolved.

(13)  Understands that divorce sucks and is more akin to getting treatment for cancer than having cosmetic surgery.

(14)  Likes men in a general sense for who they are and what they do, rather than detesting all men in general and making an exception for the tiny few in her nuclear family.

(15)  Understands the risks both men and women take in having serious relationships, and is willing to negotiate ways to verify trustworthiness in each other. Sees doing this as evidence of true commitment rather than an insulting invasion of privacy.

(16)  With her chosen partner, is deeply and passionately sexual.

(17)  Is aware of her own personal kink and can communicate her sexual desires. Takes responsibility for receiving her own sexual pleasure.

(18)  Has a sense of humor.

(19)  Respects the boundaries of other peoples relationships and doesn’t attempt to mate poach.

(20)  Doesn’t keep the Red Pill a secret from those that need it.

 

As I write that, 90% of it seems to fairly directly apply to men as well as women. And for what it’s worth, these women really do exist. Maybe not in vast numbers, but neither do they ride on unicorns or speak elvish. There’s quite a few on the forum.

 

Trinity: My name’s Trinity.

Neo: *The* Trinity? Who cracked the IRS d-base?

Trinity: That was a long time ago.

Neo: Jesus…

Trinity: What?

Neo: I just thought… you were a guy.

Trinity: Most guys do

 

When Princess Fiona Comes With a Mess of Little Donkeys

Reader:  Hi Athol,  I wrote to you before when I was in the final stages of my marriage. You gave me some good advice and it was appreciated.

It’s become clear that my major problem (other than the fact that I married a woman who seems to have BPD) was structural: I was poor, relatively (ESL teacher) and she was looking for more security. Since having gotten a better paying job in IT, my ex has shown interest again showing me that, as bitter a truth as it can be to accept, it was, in a way, my fault. I can’t blame my ex-wife for needing security, especially understanding what I do now about the “Red Pill” reality of a woman’s mind.

So, anyway, that wasn’t my point in writing. I wanted to see if you’d care to discuss something on your blog. It’s been a major breakthrough for me, having been raised as a step-child and having just divorced a woman with children. It seems that women secretly despise men that take care of children that aren’t theirs. On one level, they love and appreciate it but on another, deeper level, they seem to look at the step-father as a kind of volunteer cuckold of sorts. This can even push women who are unaware of themselves to encourage their new husbands to be especially strict or even abusive of their step-children in extreme situations. Maybe Alpha males of the sub-Saharan past would do the same as Lions (kill the young from previous males)? I wonder what your advice would be to men interested in marrying women with children from previous marriages. It seems to be a bad idea to me, from my experience. The woman will always look at those kids and remember her ex-husband and look at her new husband as a chump for taking care of children that aren’t his. Even though the Blue Pill entertainment industry has always portrayed guys that rescue the divorced woman and her child as heroes, it seems like women only think that way in the movies.

Athol:  Okay let me just shout this out at the start of the post…  in the case of infertility, adoption and artificial in insemination et al are completely different issues of “raising someone else’s child”. I’m not talking about that issue here, I’ll get to it soon I think because it’s a huge issue for many couples.

Anyway…

The ugly truth is much as you have guessed it to be. When a woman already has children and has either divorced or never married the father, she has a serious need for help with the time and effort in raising the children. Even if she’s doing fairly well from child support and alimony payments, she’s not going to have the same total household income as before the divorce, so she needs addition of income to raise her children. Thus what she needs is a dependable Beta provider and not someone who is going to rock the boat with Alpha demands for more of her attention and submission. Basically she’s had all the Alpha she can handle and now she needs you to man up about being a wallet and a babysitter.

After marrying into a solo mother’s family, men often find they have been the target of a rather well planned headhunting expedition. They’ve been wined and dined. Fabulous home cooked meals. All the kids on their best behavior. Her friends all swooping in and helping whisk the children away to their house to allow privacy and passion. Her extremely agreeable and eager to please… everything is just so wonderful… you’re actually starting to bond with the kids a little… she’s a good woman, the kids are great… let’s get married…

…wedding bells. Well not really, a simple ceremony with more of her friends than yours in attendance…

…and the honeymoon is over. Now there’s beer and Chinese takeout. The kids make it very clear that you aren’t their father. There seems to be more of her friends dropping off kids at her house than the other way around. Sex drops off fairly quickly (because you aren’t getting along with the children and that just stresses her out)  Also having moved into her house, it’s become apparent that it really is her house… not our house, her house. It’s not so much that she makes the rules, more that no one gives a crap about what you say anyway. Also apparently there’s some outstanding tax bills and it would make sense if everyone got one cell phone plan under your name.

Well that’s the horror story scenario anyway. Probably does not happen to every guy that marries into a ready made family, but certainly happens enough that the horror story is a readily reported pattern.

I think you have it right that there is a level of contempt for men that raise other men’s children. Whether she was your wife and got pregnant to another guy, or she got pregnant to another guy and became your wife, it all amounts to you spending vital resources on a child that isn’t yours. Which is pretty much the dumbest thing possible to do as far as male genes are concerned. Everyone’s Body Agenda thinks you’re a total idiot and frankly worse off than a guy that just masturbates. If all you do is jerk off, you don’t pass your genes off into the next generation, but at least you aren’t paying through the nose for the privilege.

Also watch for the frequent request to legally adopt her children. That’s just her exit strategy to divorce you and still get your money, without having to go through the mental effort of having to endlessly spurn you sexually. Depending on which state you’re in, you may not even have to legally marry her to get caught up in a child support mess because you have been “acting like a father to the children.” The little darlings did bond to you so quickly after all.

As you can probably figure out now, if you had your whole Alpha/Beta/Physical package together from the start, you would never have felt the need to have gotten involved with her so seriously in the first place. If you’re a hotter guy and a better catch, instead of the single girl without kids flaking on you and the solo mom being the best you could get, the single girl turns into your fiance and the solo mom acts is her bridesmaid and drinks a little too much at the reception. Sex Rank is a true marketplace and cares not for Hollywood endings.

So personally, I would think extremely seriously about getting involved with anyone marrying for the second time, especially if they have children, oh and if you’re just a wallet, they always try and get pregnant asap to trap you in further. The exception to this being if we’re talking about two middle aged people with grown children, that’s a bit of a different situation. In that case the woman is looking for a more Alpha partner to have fun with and a proper relationship. You’re not going to get caught up in child support hell if see has a 25-year-old son and a 23-year-old daughter. But they sure as hell shouldn’t be living at home still. Kids gotta be self-supporting, or no dice on the getting involved front. Or put another way… Princess Fiona shouldn’t come with a collection of Donkeys.

Elitist Jerks Get Better Women

True story:  Once upon a time I had a serious crush on someone in particular in my circle. Great girl. Not the hottest chick in the room, but with the magical X factor that made you forget all about that after talking with her for few minutes. She was interested in me and she got under my skin. Jennifer not too keen on her though. Awkward.

What killed my interest off though, and by killed off, I mean scales-falling-from-my-eyes “WTF was I thinking” switch thrown in my head, was her written English punctuation. Let me just sidetrack here a second to say that I’m a hypocrite on this issue. Despite being an author, I have some kind of highly focused mental retardation for understanding things like what a noun is, or an adverb. Tell me not to finish a sentence with a preposition and I’ll nod and smile and say I understand… but I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. And yes people have tried. My schooling is littered with English teachers driven to drink and a deep abiding regret for the passing of corporal punishment.

Anyway…

…all that being said, I do know enough to know that sentences need to start with capital letters and the word “I” isn’t written as “i”. I also use periods. And line returns. I got this email from her one day and it simply read as a stream of illiteracy and it was over. Lolcat is fun but not teh sexy. Yous cant haz Atholburger.

I lost all motivation and our friendship just withered away in a fiasco of me trying to half-ass White Knight her during a fairly legit shitty hand her life had just dealt her. Plus to her credit I suspect she didn’t want to do to Jennifer what had just been done to her. In the end nothing happened and we just lost contact. Jennifer happier of course but I’ve always had this really odd sense of rejecting someone for their written English as being extremely petty of me. I did the right thing for the wrong reasons, so I felt like an asshole for doing so. Attraction isn’t controllable.

What makes me suddenly remember all this is my sister’s Facebook image of the day…

Now I know that’s just a Google screen capture, and I really do NOT think my friend was playing STD Pokemon (gotta catch ‘em all) but it made me check up and think about it all again. Seems more and more like a good call to default to being an elitist jerk when it comes to letting women into your life. Have some standards. Make them jump through some hoops to get to you.

I did attend St. Hogwarts so the muggle hating gene might have been activated there. I’d love to claim that my elementary and middle school Christian education bred manners and sexual purity into me, but apparently concepts such as line-of-sight were beyond the faculty’s… faculty. Boys and girls playing tag + can’t see us from the teacher’s lounge = “catch and kiss” games that would make a polyamory convention seem quaintly restrained.

I can probably segue that into a discussion about how females given the opportunity and lack of shaming can be quite happy to experiment with mutliple partners in quick succession. Or open up the “is monogamy natural” debate, but I need to stop here and go check-in on my daughters…

Jennifer:  Lesson learned – Never let your husband do nice things for other women. There are no White Knights, only Horny Knights.  

The Ultimatum Always Sucks

One of the most annoying misunderstandings people can have about MMSL is that I’m encouraging people to run gung ho to an ultimatum of “Pussy or GTFO”.

Well yes indeed I am saying to work toward a relationship where you get your needs meet, or don’t stay in it. Which if your need is sex, can indeed be summed down to “Pussy or GTFO”. But it’s in no way a snap judgment call. If anything I’m encouraging a very slow trickling run up to the ultimatum putting anything and everything in place to attracted the wife’s sexual interest before the fork in the road. Far more frequently than not, the ultimatum is never even reached as she finds her interest in him revving up and her vagina comes out of cold storage.

But ultimately… there may need to be an ultimatum. It’s the final thing you try… that’s what ultimate means.

And it fucking sucks.

Please go read Phase Four at LTRistry

No really. No read it. I’ll wait.

As you can see he’s basically issuing an ultimatum and it’s tearing his heart out. It’s one of those to good to leave, too bad to stay things. My hunch is that it’s over and even if she tries to comply… she doesn’t really want to. You shouldn’t have to issue an ultimatum to someone to get them to have a child with you. They’re meant to look up at you doe-faced and glassy-eyed as you fuck them into motherhood. At least for the first couple of tries anyway.

It’s hard to watch it all playing out too. MMSL is wicked good fun when one of my boys breaks into the endzone and does the touchdown dance, but once in a while you see them get crunched in a heavy tackle and it’s not nearly as fun. You just hope they get up.

Also have a read of Badger with Don’t Let Temporary Discomforts Hold You Back From Making Tough Decisions

 

When She Has A Hereditary Genetic Disorder

[Minor editing to obscure the exact organ disorder per reader request]

Reader:  Athol,  I’ve been a big fan of your book and blog since the beginning – I congratulate you on your success.  It has helped me get through a very difficult part of my life, and gave me direction and answers to questions I didn’t even know I had. (Knowing alpha vs. beta = huge difference!)

I have a question for you that I haven’t yet seen anyone else address on your blog, but one that I think would greatly benefit your readers.

I’m in my early 30’s and I’ve been dating a wonderful woman for a year now, someone I consider marrying in the future.  She’s a great partner in life.  By that I mean, she’s very pleasing to be around, fun, has good values (so far), fantastic in bed, and due to her having been born and raised in a different country, isn’t tainted by the typical American feminist entitled views – she actually wants to contribute to the relationship and seeks out ways to make it stronger.

Nobody’s perfect – I accept her for who she is – and vice versa.  However, she has a hereditary genetic disorder [that will cause organ failure in about 30 years] unless we’ll be able to grow her a new one from her stem cells, which is a very real possibility, but just that – a possibility. She does her best to manage it long term with diet, exercise, low stress, which extends her life but doesn’t cure the disease.

The worst part is that it’s hereditary – our offspring have a 50/50 chance of getting it, unless we decide on genetic testing and in-vitro fertilization (~$30k+), with no guarantee that it’ll work.

From a male body agenda perspective, it’s a huge negative, since a) my potential wife may just pass away in 30 years and I’d have to spend retirement by myself w/o my life partner, b) our offspring will have a high chance of getting this disease and they will lose their mother when they’re also in their young 30’s.

On the flipside, it’s in my best interest to find a wife, who has the qualities I deem vital for a viable and very happy future. In her I see all the things that I always looked for and haven’t seen or found in anyone else – she makes me very happy (dedicated to family as much as I, spectacular in bed, giving and caring, loves adoring her strong husband, among a million other things).  As I said, she’s a life partner, a true catch – and I say that from as rational, level headed point of view (as opposed to an emotional one) as I can.  Not to sound like I have one-itis, I doubt there’ll be another one like her.  And that’s the huge plus – or in other words, a trade-off.

On one hand, I can attempt to find someone who fits the profile (i.e. healthy, smart, sexy, etc) but I will find out something else about them that’ll be a turnoff (as it’s inevitable) – or take my chances with her.  Which is what I’ve decided to do.

I’m very curious as to what you think, Athol?  I love her and see great things down the line, but the thought of potentially losing her in some time scared the crap out of me.  I came to terms with it, though.  With most people, you really don’t have much of a clue what they’ll die of (and most of the time, you don’t even think about it), but with her, you’re pretty certain.  I didn’t think facing her mortality at this point would happen – but it makes me appreciate every moment w/ her, and saddens at the same time.

I’d really appreciate a response from you. Look forward to your continued success.

Athol:  I think your mind is made up and there’s nothing I can say to persuade you otherwise. Which is not to say that I think you are wrong. If this is her only defect, it’s a judgment call.

She does sound good in every way but this. I think you just have to hope like hell that medical science advances in the next twenty years and [a new organ] can be grown from her stem cells and thus can be replaced.

Kids are amazingly expensive to raise. The $30,000 may only amount to 10% of the cost to raise the kid over it’s lifetime. So if you’re in for $300,000, does being in for $330,000 really make that much difference?

How much would the extra health care cost over the child’s life if you get unlucky on the 50/50? $50,000? $200,000? I think you might want to see the cost of in-vitro fertilization as almost like an insurance premium.

I would however make sure this something that is discussed and agreed upon before getting married. These are big decisions and you need to be able to move into the future together with a agreed upon plan. Perhaps instead of a big wedding, you have a small event explaining why, and put all the wedding budget and giftage toward the genetic testing and in-vitro. It’s a romantic tear-jerker of a story to tell and I suspect you’ll get a lot of helping hands. Besides that, shopping for wedding presents is a pain in the ass and the option to just write a check is great.

Passing the disorder onto your children would be a heavy burden to carry through life, both for you and for them. I can very much assure you that genetic matching and evaluation will play a role in dating and match making in the nearish future. If they have a hereditary genetic disorder, their life may be very lonely indeed twenty or thirty years from now. Take a peek at Genepartner and 23andme  for example. These are fairly crude now, but not crazy expensive. In a few decades they will be routine and quite accurate.

Personally I passed on pursuing an ill young woman as a potential wife. I wanted her so badly, but I could see the long struggles ahead so pulled back from her. A little while later I meet Jennifer and moved heaven and earth to be with her. Both were excellent decisions and I have no regrets. My life has been amazing with Jennifer.

Life can be random too. I knew a guy who married a perfectly healthy 22-year-old and breast cancer took her within two years. I had a 25-year-old friend killed when she was rear-ended at a red light by a drunk going over 60mph. I also know a guy who was given three months to live when he was born, and one year to live when he was twenty and still made it to age thirty-three before his luck ran out. When Jennifer was twenty-eight and our daughters were still just a baby and a toddler, her mammogram results were sent to our house instead of our doctor and the results bluntly and clearly stated “malignancy.” Jennifer sobbed herself to sleep in my arms every night while I had unstoppable daydreams about her withering away over the next year in pain and despair, leaving me alone with the girls. The biopsy results came back negative. Then much the same shit happened again eight years later.

All you can do is influence the odds in your favor as best you can, but there are no guarantees of anything. You have a difficult road ahead, but maybe the right road too.

And yes you do have Oneitis for her…

…but as long as she also has Oneitis for you, that’s not a bad thing. If you’re getting married, you’re both meant to be in love.