Red Pill Do Us Start

AnonJohn:   What would Red Pill Marriages Vows look/sound like?

I promise to have and to hold you, unless you get too big to hold?

In sickness and health, maybe, but definitely only in richer and not for poorer?

You’re my one and only unless you don’t give it up?

Does anyone have any real suggestions?

Athol:  Well being completely Red Pill about this, the vows are meaningless because the actual legal agreement you’re making is whatever the marriage law is in your state. From ye olde achives…  Dershowitz and Feinstein and the Legally Binding Threesome.

Jodi always kind of rolls her eyes a little at that. She just says that Connecticut is a No Fault divorce State, and basically anytime either one of us wants out she’ll be happy to tear up the marriage license and start deciding how to divide up half of everything. But we tell her “we made vows though”, she just sips her tea and says it’s all a verbal agreement and inadmissible in a court of law.

“In fact” she says, “you could have said nothing in that little church, or you could have said vows in Latin, Elvis could have been your best man, Joan of Arc the Maid of Honor and Moses could have done the service and it all wouldn’t matter any different.”   She paused for effect… “you could have just sung Puff the Magic Dragon to each other for all I care. The marriage license is your consent to the marriage agreement as defined by Connecticut Marriage Law. That’s what your marriage agreement is.”

We look across at Dershowtiz and Feinstein. They look bored.

All that being said, it does kind of make having a get together to celebrate getting married a little awkward if you don’t hold hands and say something all sappy about getting married. Well maybe not sappy, but at least meaningful… marriage is a big committment after all.

So here’s a crack at something to say on your special day…

Do you both agree to have an exclusive, vibrant and engaged sexual relationship together?  (We do)

Do you both agree to meet the other’s need for sexual consensuality and safety?  (We do)

As each other’s only sexual partner, do you both agree to explore and experiment, seeking to discover and meet each others needs for variety and pleasure?  (We do)

Do you both agree to love, support and nurture any children you have together?  (We do)

Do you both agree to forgo the right to privacy from each other and allow each other full access to each others personal communications and whereabouts at any and all times?  (We do)

Do you both agree to join your finances together, have full access to each others financial information and file your taxes together as a couple?  (We do)

Do you both agree to allow to each other full access to medical information and act on any health concerns?  (We do)

Do you both agree to commit yourself to maintaining good personal health, fitness and appearance?  (We do)

Do you both agree to maintain a home, engage in productive work and be a positive force in each other’s lives?  (We do)

Do you both agree to give each other a fair and documented warning of any potential relationship breaking problems? (We do)

Do you [Name] agree to act as the First Officer of the relationship, seeking to support, advise, respect and accept all else that entails? (I do)

Do you [Name] agree to act as the Captain of the relationship, seeking to lead, listen, appreciate and accept all else that entails?  (I do)

Do you both love each other?  (We do)

Anyway, that’s what I came up with this fine evening.

As off the cuff as this is, the future is going to be very interesting as this sort of thing becomes less and less of a playful concern, and the possibility of private contracts comes more and more into play. The more I wrote the more I wanted to write. It was a minor challenge to not start writing it out as a legal contract lol. I can certainly see that in the future, Marriage 3.0 might be far more of a “check the boxes for what you want to agree to” sort of deal. The legalities signed up for online via the Google Marriage app of something. Short term contracts might be a possibility too.

What I do know is this, though – men and women are still going to want to be in relationships with each other. The question is how that is managed as a society.

Do Not Take Me For Some Conjurer of Cheap Tricks

Some friendly disagreement about my post Why The “No Divorce” Belief Can Ruin Your Marriage from Vox and Simon. So let me just double up on my assertions.

Women are more attracted to men who can dump them and replace them at will, than men that cannot. Being able to dump her and move on to a new woman easily is heavy duty Alpha street cred and women are attracted to that. Totally removing divorce from the choice of options is a nerfing of the husbands Alpha. It’s a built in structural weakness to the regular Christian husbands ability to game his wife. It’s like you’re competing against guys running the 100m Dash while you run the 110m Hurdles.

Naturally of course a husband needs to bring Beta to the mix to reassure her that she’s not going to be dumped for no good reason, and to create overall relationship comfort. Plus to be quite blunt, I’m absolutely not in favor of frivolous divorce. Divorce is always, always, always the last resort… but sometimes you just gotta draw some total BS to a close and move on with your life.

The truth of the matter is that Christian women work just like every other woman. They get more attracted to a man who openly admits he would divorce them for slacking off for no reason, and lose attraction to a man who says that he would never divorce them for any reason. Every time you warble your unconditional love song, she eats another slice of cake. A confident man that can demand a woman be her best for him is hot. Couple that with him not demanding what she can’t reasonably do, and paying her affectionate attention, and you’ve got the sweet spot of married game.

The honest truth is that 99% of all Christian men come to me at their wits end, after everything else has failed for them and I am truly their last resort. I mean if you’re a Christian, coming to an Atheist for marriage advice must feel like asking Jamaicans for snow removal tips. So let me put it this way, having run MMSL for 2.5 years now, I’ve seen a cycle of interaction so often it’s now a cliche to me.

First the Christian husband finally reaches a breaking point with the combination of his belief and state of his marriage, and in an icy rage put divorce squarely back on the table. At that point I’m usually trying to slow their rush to divorce down… the first few days it’s usually a big victim puke session and I let them vent… and then they really start looking at Phase Three to Seven as being allowable and begin working toward it in earnest. (Which could take months or years depending on where they are at)

Then far more often than not… guess what happens…

“Magically” the wife turns herself around and starts paying him more respect, more attention, more deference and more sexy time. And that’s more sexy time after a very long time for a lot of these guys. The husband finally acting like he could potentially dump her and replace her, re-attracts her. Marriage saved, sex life restarted, kids growing up in an intact family, divorce lawyers eating Ramen noodles and missing car payments.

The truth of the matter is that MMSL has Christian women as my highest book buying demographic. I’m not kidding about that. They buy it for themselves, they buy it for their husbands, and their sons and brothers. They are turned on by the idea of being First Officers and being held to standards of behavior in exchange for compassionate leadership from their man. Let me repeat that… they are turned on by that.

Look I know if you’re a Christian reading this, it’s all utterly appalling to read and it just seems so totally wrong. Just believe me when I say I’ve seen it work over and over and over again. Where that fits or doesn’t fit into your theology or morals is up to you. As I keep saying, I don’t care what you believe, I’m not trying to make people Atheists, I’m just here to save marriages and help people. I only care about your religion as much as it gets in the way of me getting you back to a happy marriage, sex life, or whatever it is you want to happen.

I’m not trying to rob you. I’m trying to help you.

Why The “No Divorce” Belief Can Ruin Your Marriage

Okey-dokey, I gotta talk about this post on The Bible and Divorce over at Alpha Game.

And as my standard disclaimer when I talk about religious thought – I’m an ex-Christian and now an atheist so be advised. I don’t care about any particular belief about God / Jesus / The Flying Spaghetti Monster / The Star Goat of Thollian IV, my only interest in religion is how it affects your marriage for better or for worse. I’m not debating belief, just pointing out what I see. It’s up to you guys to figure out how well my thought meshes with your religion.

Anyway, here’s the original reader question…

My marriage is in bad shape. I have dug pretty thoroughly and do not believe there has been any actual sexual activity by my wife with anyone else. However, I have discovered other things that cause me to seriously doubt whether this marriage can ever rise to the level of mediocre. I now see her with eyes of contempt mixed with love (still). It’s a weird/unpleasant combination.

I would greatly appreciate your views on what are biblically solid grounds for divorce. I have come to the edge where I am about to prefer divorce over trying to rebuild/game up/man up/whatever. However, my preference does not matter if it violates God’s commands. I would rather suffer in obedience to God than seek pleasure in rebellion.

Minus the question of my view on biblical grounds for divorce, I hear this exact same question from a reader about twice a month. “I’ve tried everything, but I can’t divorce because I’m a Christian. What do I do?” So this isn’t an academic question to me, it’s a real world issue and I do my best to help out. Unfortunately the “no divorce” rule makes Christian men very resistant with doing what they need to do to fix their marriage. They always worry it’s going to crash and burn into a sinful divorce. So they play it far too safe and end up bringing a banana to the knife fight.

Here’s the key problem that Christians miss with their “no divorce” platform. Once you remove the possibility of divorce from the equation, there is no longer an effective consequence for what would otherwise be a genuine relationship breaking problem. Which means relationship breaking problems can never effectively be addressed and end up simply being tolerated. Oh sure you can beg and plead and pray and take her to the elders and they can frown at her yada yada yada, but that’s all just talk and making threatening gestures with the banana. Like she cares about that. Thus the “no divorce” platform can actually be a significant causal factor in a really shitty Christian marriage.

Let me explain…

Jennifer and I love each other a great deal and there’s not a whole lot we wouldn’t do for each other. But we both have a great deal of expectations about the other, that we know are simply deal breakers if broken/not met. For example, if I ever hit Jennifer in anger, I’m pretty damn sure that it’s over between us. No counseling, no thinking about it, I’m just a bit too big compared to her for her to ever relax around me again. It would be over. Jennifer can hit me once. I don’t know why that is, I think because if she ever hit me I would have earned it by not listening for way too long and generally being an asshat. But hit me twice and it’s over. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. No hitting. End of discussion.

We also have an agreement that we’ll both work. Sure Jennifer and I slack off once in a while and do nothing, but that’s a rest after a long period of working. If that rest turned into a consistent pattern of one of us just slacking off and doing nothing much, that’s not going to be tolerated. We don’t have to be making a ton of money, we just can’t be permanently lazy. If lazy goes on for long enough, the other would start getting unpleasant about it. Ultimately if the other person downed tools and refused to pick them up, I don’t see that lasting much more than a couple months before divorce would be coming to the surface as a considered option. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. We’ll both work and hold up our end of the marriage. End of discussion.

We also have an agreement that we’ll both stay basically attractive to each other and have a strong sex life. Jennifer knows that if she just lets herself go and/or stops being a fun sexual partner for me, I’m gonna head for the door. I also know that if I become a crappy sex partner for her, she’s not going to be able to be responsive to me the way I want her to be. I’m not going to reasonably expect her to be into me if I’ve let myself go, or if I’m cruel to her. So I treat her very well. Our marriage is a sexual relationship, that’s why we’re married. Thus we have a standard of behavior and a serious consequence for breaking it. Sexy Time is very important. End of discussion.

So our standards and willingness to enforce genuine relationship breaking issues with the ultimate consequence, means that we never actually develop those relationship breaking issues. Our willingness to divorce, averts divorce.

But, if Jennifer figured out that I would never, ever, under any circumstances divorce her because of my religious beliefs, that would allow her a lot more leeway on those standards of behavior. Maybe she could scream and yell in the kitchen about something. Maybe she could bounce a cup off my head on alternate Tuesdays. Maybe she could come home one day and tell me she just quit her job because it was all so tiring and made her unhappy. Maybe she could put on 100 pounds. Maybe she could cut me back to once a month sex. Maybe she could take all the money and go shopping for cute outfits for her little purse dog. Or maybe she could buy $1500 of Mary Kay cosmetics to “start her business” and only sell $40 worth to her mother.

Or based on the emails I get… she could do all of that at once.

Because I would never be allowed to divorce, can you see how I’m screwed? I can’t really do anything to stop myself from being trapped in this horrible marriage. I mean what I am going to do? Ground her? Be mad? Sure I can make myself look sexier and all hot, but that’s no threat if I can’t leave her and hook up with someone else. I’d have to just stick it out and love her unconditionally.

Do. Not. Want.

See how blindly being on the “no divorce” platform can ruin your marriage?

So let me come around at this from a different angle to hopefully help my Christian friends understand this better. The original guy’s key statement is this…

“I would rather suffer in obedience to God than seek pleasure in rebellion.”

Dude you have it backwards. As the Captain of the household, you are responsible for the safety, well being, happiness, and overall functionality of your household. Complaining that your wife is crappy isn’t very Captainy. My hunch is that your actual problem is that you’ve been asleep at the switch for the longest time, too frightened to actually stand up for yourself. You’ve been without effective demands for some basic standards of behavior and she’s just run riot on you. Your whole marriage is like trample porn without the nudity.* Whether you want to admit it or not, she’s always looked to you to act like the Captain. It’s not 100% her fault that you’re in this pickle. Some of it is her fault, but some of it is yours… and because the Captain is always more responsible than the First Officer, it’s more your fault than hers. The Captain is last off the ship and doesn’t ask for a legal loophole to allow him to be first to the lifeboats. That’s what being the Captain means.

Or put in Christanese… you’ve been disobedient to God the whole time you haven’t been taking responsibility for your marriage. You’re in rebellion now.

And yeah I know what Jesus said, but he wasn’t giving advice in a Marriage 2.0 world was he. Maybe he would have said something different if the wives could call the Roman soldiers in to arrest their husbands for not appreciating the meatloaf appropriately. As it was, a divorced woman in Jesus’s time was pretty much going to have to learn to turn tricks, which literally sucks… so I’m with JC on that one.

So my advice is pretty simple, put things right. Both in you and in her. Set some standards for behavior for each other. Allow time for everything to work itself out and change direction, there are no instant fixes with marriages, but you can greatly improve things. If you put in the proper effort with the right attitude, you have a reasonable chance of making things better. If you do all the right things and she proves herself to be utterly defiant and unwilling to hold up her end of the marriage agreement, that’s her choice to make and you may as well accept it. If so, then just let her go and be Gods plan for feral cat colony management.

Jennifer: The whole no divorce thing is important because you can’t over react to every little thing and reach for the divorce button. I don’t worry Athol would ever leave me for something silly, but there’s plenty that can go wrong in a marriage that isn’t cheating. We respect each other.

* No offense intended to believers of The Star Goat of Thollian IV


The New Life, Wife and Masculine Style

Athol:  One of the things I’m clear about with MMSL is that if you run the MAP, there’s not a 100% chance your wife will respond positively to your efforts. All I say is that if you pull yourself together, someone will respond to you. Which is why Phase Seven is called “Your new life… and maybe new wife.”

So here’s Tanner Guzy, one of my blog friends from a few years back, who went all the way to Phase Seven and lived to tell the tale…

Athol:  What brought you to seek MMSL?

Tanner:  My foray into the Manosphere was probably fairly typical. I’ve read GQ and Esquire for a while and happened to see a link on Esquire’s page to the Art of Manliness. I devoured that site when I first found it and was pretty active in the comments and the forum. One day there was a comment by some kid that really struck home for me. I don’t know what he said or even who the (now defunct) blogger was but I followed his profile to his own site. From there I found Hawaiian Libertarian and the whole Manosphere opened up to me. Being married and a Mormon I could see the truth in a lot of what guys like Roissy and Roosh talked about but I wanted a better understanding of how it could apply to me. Dave from HL was married and had some good posts and thankfully he also linked to MMSL. It was nice to see a site that had already done the legwork of converting Game into a marriage-friendly concept.

Athol:  How did MMSL help with your first wife?

Tanner:  It would be a lie to say that MMSL, Game, and the MAP didn’t help with my first wife. However, there was more of an impact on me than there was on my marriage. I was able to start improving myself and implementing small things; setting better boundaries, not falling for every fitness test, and keeping a better frame. However, where it really helped was in letting me realize that the success or failure of my marriage wasn’t entirely my responsibility. I grew up in a culture that emphasizes the responsibility of manhood and the man in the marriage. Unfortunately, the culture of Mormons (especially in Utah) is about equidistant behind the rest of Christianity as the rest of Christianity is with the rest of Western Society. Basically, it’s still a doctrinally patriarchal church, but the culture is seeking more and more ways to rationalize those uncomfortable truths. This put me in a pickle because it meant that divorce was always the wrong answer. Now I know that’s not the case and there are even times when God will allow divorce in order to allow parties to move on and prepare better environments for their future children.

Athol:  So having come to the point of divorce, what did you do?

Tanner:  Making the decision to file for divorce was incredibly difficult. What’s difficult about it now is telling it in a way that doesn’t sound cold or calculated. There was one night about four months before I actually committed to file where my wife and I had some sort of petty argument. I left to go to a friend’s house and when I came back she was gone. She sent me a text message informing me that she’d be at her parents’ until further notice. It ended up being a full week without any contact. The sad thing was about two days in I had gotten home from work and was sitting on the couch with my dog. I realized that the house was cleaner than it had been for months because I was cleaning it myself, my dog was more relaxed than he’d been since we got him, and I was more comfortable and happy than I’d been at any point in our four-year relationship. I hated that feeling. I didn’t want to be happier with my wife gone. I wanted to be happy with her. I wanted to be relaxed with her and feel like my home was a safe haven from the battle ground that is the outside world. But it wasn’t. That week was when I really started considering divorce as an option and decided I’d put it on the table.

I spent countless hours fasting and praying trying to make the right decision. We saw a counselor and I kept implementing more of what I learned from reading the MAP and other sites. I started looking deeper into the doctrines of the Church and what its official, not cultural, position on marriage was. Every day it seemed like I came to a different conclusion until finally I realized that all my wife’s attempts to improve things were really just a token effort. She never really accepted responsibility for her part in our failed relationship and continued to expect me to be the one to make all the real sacrifices to make it work. Eventually we both realized (me before filing and her long after) that for years we had only been married and working on our marriage, it had nothing to do with each other. The final thing that made the decision for me was the thought of bringing children into that family. I was willing to accept responsibility for the decision I had made to marry, but I wasn’t willing to subject my children and her children to that just because we were too proud or too scared to split up before they arrived. So, after four long, miserable months I decided to file and end things.

Athol:  What’s different about your new marriage?

Tanner:  The differences between my first and second marriage are night and day. I’m the king of my castle and my wife actually gets treated better than any woman I’ve ever been with, even in my bluest of blue-pill days. The big difference is that I’m good to her and she’s good to me out of a sense of love and mutual respect. It’s very similar to what you and Jennifer have. With my first wife, any expression of love or affection was like paying taxes – I did it because I knew there’d be hell to pay if I didn’t. But now, it’s like donating to charity, I give up something of myself because I want to.

On top of how differently I treat my wife, I also expect that same treatment from her. I’m quick to compliment and I’m quick to correct if I need to. The great thing is how much my wife loves and appreciates me for it. She looks up to me and respects my opinion. She also knows that I listen to her and her opinion even when I make a decision that is counter to her. She trusts me because I expect that trust, not because I’m supplicating and asking her how I can earn it. She loves me because I’m actually attractive to her. While we may talk about what does or doesn’t work in the bedroom, we don’t have to talk about what I can do to get her going or why she just can’t feel sexy when the dishes aren’t done and other things like that. Having a marriage that’s based in proper gender roles makes things easier and happier for the both of us. It’s not one of us being happy at the expense of the other.

Athol:  Tell me about Masculine Style.

Tanner:  Masculine Style is a blog I started almost a year ago to help red-pill men learn how to dress better. There are dozens of men’s style blogs and magazines out there but they’re all tough to read because of the way they write and appeal to men. One thing that can be hard about taking the red pill is learning to still read and accept the opinions of those who haven’t. When it comes to things like sentence structure, content choice, and reasons to dress well, it’s difficult to read a lot of other sites. Dressing better is also one of the easiest and most neglected aspects of the MAP (you’ve even admitted to this yourself). However, the reason it’s so difficult is because the decline in societal masculinity has also effected a major decline in men’s conscious concern for their appearance. It’s something that the Baby Boomers and younger generations feel like they can’t vocalize any real concern for and so many of us grew up without dads or other mentors teaching us the fundamentals of dressing better.

What started as just a blog has turned into a consulting business. My wife and I just had our first child and she wanted to stay home. So I needed to figure out a way to earn some extra income. On top of that, I wanted to be able to transition into doing something I love. I was more than just a little bit envious when I found out you were to the point where you could do MMSL full time.

So now I’m offering different consultations for men. They can be as basic as telling you what colors and patterns will look best on you based on your build and complexion, or as complex as helping someone with a budget of 12 grand choose every article of clothing that will work in two different climates. Whatever help a man needs and whatever unique situation he’s in, I can help him dress better and increase his sex rank as a result.

Athol:  And for the record, I’m not getting paid anything by Tanner, just giving him a wee push for his new project… and quietly grooming my style minion in case there’s ever a reality show or something. Ya never know lol. (And no nothing is in the works.)

Also, Tanner took the high road in talking about his ex-wife. This wasn’t a walkaway husband for no reason and lets leave it at that. If the best revenge is living well, I think he’s got a good handle on it.

Oh and a pic of the happy couple. She’s three weeks post-partum in the picture, so play nice kiddies.  (Jennifer: Ummm…if I’d looked that happy and fit three weeks post partum, I would have thrown myself a party lol)

Proof Good Wives Are Out There (And How To Test For One)

Sometimes even I get surprised. I was expecting that I was going to get a at least some negative to guarded reaction to buying Jennifer pots and pans (of her choice) for her birthday in yesterday’s post.

Instead this is the reaction I got in the comments, and believe me, I’m not even cherry picking a handful of good ones, this is about 75% of all the comments. Just listen to the women talking here. I’m so tired of being told I found Jennifer riding around on a unicorn. These are fairly standard female MMSL readers and I’m proud of all of them. Perhaps a really cool kitchen item is an acid test you should throw the way of a prospective bride before you sign on the dotted line. Looking back, I’m pretty sure Jennifer would have loved a cool household item from the start.

Kort:  My parents gave me my grandmother’s pots and pans, that still have the warranty on them, for a housewarming gift. And let me know that, as soon as the next piece in the set comes out, they’ll get that for me, too. They are closely guarded and much beloved. I bought myself the expensive vacuum for my 30th. I’d earned it.

Seriously, I love practical gifts. If my hubby got me the non-stick pans I’ve been eyeing for Christmas, it’d be a major step in the right direction. It would show that, after 10+ years, he knows me. Yeah, I’m betting I get the bath and body works gift set that I’m allergic to and a sweater.

Yep, totally jealous of Jennifer. And to all the haters: there is nothing wrong with getting a good set of pots and pans for a major birthday!

Julia:  We’ve usually gone the practical route also; foot massager, kitchen ware, woodworking tools, etc. How much can you really do with a piece of jewelry? At least you still put in the effort to do the gift exchange thing; we’ve slacked off the past few years.

Mike 43:  For one of my wife’s birthday, I bought an expensive mixer. I mean, 300 dollar range. She’d been pining over it for months, so I got it for her.   I let slip that I bought it at work, and the ladies were horrified. But now that I think of it, it may have been of my surety that should would regard it as a great gift, or that she did.   They all asked how she liked it, I just grinned.

Anacaona:  Oh I love kitchen tools! Totally good presents in my book

Shanna:  @Mike43  I totally want one of those mixers! Lucky. (said in Napoleon Dynamite’s voice)  Anyone who would be horrified at that or the pans Jennifer got couldn’t be my friend.  OH and I just got a scale for my bday, too! It tells me bodyfat, muscle, BMI. I love it.  Actually if someone buys you a scale that must mean you’re NOT fat. Because if you WERE fat and they bought you a scale, that’s just rude, right?   Love the ceramic pans! I mean- who wants to die of Dupont Teflon poisoning?

Lindy:  Hubby got me a nice set of stainless steel pots and pans the Xmas before we got married (we don’t do non-stick b/c we’re dirty hippies). I loved it!

Jessie:  Happy Birthday! I always want practical presents, too. I think I’m the only girl in America that would cry if I got jewelry. But I do a happy dance over appliances, knives, etc. And my favorite present ever was my all-clad pots and pans.

Bleeping Slooty:  The best holiday gift I ever got was a Kitchenaid mixer. I hope this Christmas I finally get that sexy Dyson vacuum cleaner. (I have an internet nerd crush on the Dyson vacuum guy.)

Jacquie:  Twenty years ago I was read the riot act by a woman we’d just met and struck up a conversation with in the mall. I mentioned that we were there shopping for a stainless steel colander I’d asked for as a gift from my husband. She tried to make me feel pretty rotten for wanting something practical instead of jewelry or flowers and such, in front of my husband; and went on and on about how if her man got her something practical like that she’d make him wear it. We both remembered that incident recently in our red pill awakening and just had to chuckle. Glad to be here and know we’re not the only ones who think like this.

Wendy:  I wasn’t jealous until I read that they are ceramic. Score! Happy Birthday Jennifer

HeSedSheSed:  Ha. I got a Dyson Vacuum for Valentine’s Day….and I LOVED IT!

Anonymouse:  At least I’m not alone in my desire for housewares as gifts Happy birthday Jennifer!

Stingray:   This is awesome. My husband bought a new carpet cleaner from a neighbor once that he decided he didn’t want after he brought it home. We just bought it from him since he was just going to take it back. My husband told him it was going to be my Valentine’s day present (which we don’t celebrate) and this guy nearly choked to death. “You’re giving it to her for what?!?!?!?!” It was hysterical. And it was a wonderful present.

Practical presents like this are wonderful, especially if they are something you would never spend the money on otherwise or buy ones that are as high quality. It is such a nice surprise to open the box and see something in there you have really wanted around the house, that you have been doing without because it’s not really necessary, but would be oh-so-useful. Those are my very favorite gifts.

Julie:  Great birthday gift in my mind! Ya know what my husband got me for my last birthday? A lovely apron and new dish towels!!!! He got them because that is what I asked for! They were from Williams-Sonoma and not cheap. I love kitchen items for gifts because I LOVE to cook and bake for my man and my kids. I don’t care what anyone else thinks-fabulous gifts for me! I actually don’t want jewelry as with two little boys I am constantly cleaning up messes, changing dirty diapers, wiping up spills, being puked on, etc. Not practical for this stage in my life.

RedPillNewb:  My wife can’t stand frivolous things like flowers or jewelry. I get great mileage out of intentionally outraging other women with stories of my gifts (or lack of gifts). I can’t understand why they think they should be outraged on behalf of a woman they hardly know if that woman doesn’t get something they would want.

RedPillWifey: Nothing wrong with practical. Happy birthday Jennifer!

Jennifer:  Thanks for all the birthday wishes! And yes I would have loved a cool house present from the start…although Athol was the cook at the start of our marriage so I wouldn’t have known what to do with an expensive mixer or something lol…




Break The Premarital Sex Rules, Win Valuable Prizes

Reader:  Hi Athol, I’ve reading your blog for a few months now and I’ve gone through some of the archives but I have not seen this question addressed although I’m sure it has.  Do you need to have sex before marriage in order to know you will enjoy sex with that person later?  To know that you have “chemistry”?  Or is all that is needed is two willing partners willing to work towards pleasing each other?  So that in essence, you could have good sex with anybody.

Thank you for your time.

Athol: In short, most penises fit into most vaginas, so it will probably be just fine. If you’ve kissed each other a ton and you feel you have chemistry when you do that, you’ve got chemistry.

But… day-um marriage is high stakes poker these days. So I’m just going to go out on a limb and assume you have, or are about to have, a fiance, and you’re from a conservative religious background.


Rather than reach into the morality bag for a large stick to beat you with, let’s just say that the plan to wait until marriage is called the Virginity Strategy. The basic plan being that if you wait until marriage, you arrive unsullied, without baggage, without bad experiences and with all that pristine sexuality, you and your bride merge easily and happily into a really high quality sexual relationship.

The good news is that really can be all true. The Virginity Strategy really can work out really well for a couple. But it’s not a perfect plan and some people end up with dramatic sexual failures as a result. Sometimes you discover some kind of unknown sexual incompatibility. Sometimes the Virginity Strategy is purposely used by one half of the couple as a smoke screen to hide a known sexual dysfunction or non-heterosexual orientation. I know of several couples where the husband was discovered to be gay after the wedding, one case of micropenis, multiple cases where the wife refused nearly all sexual contact with her husband after the wedding due to prior undisclosed rape trauma. All pretty major problems resulting in the marriage being an epic fail. I’d love to be able to stay that the Virginity Strategy is a perfect strategy, but it’s only a pretty good one.

So my advice is to adhere to the Virginity Strategy, but cover the risks inherent in it by having sex during the engagement. If you want to save intercourse for the wedding night, that’s fine by me, but you should at least have an understanding of how to get each other off before the wedding. You should see that each other has a working set of bits and you’re not marrying into an obvious sexual failure.

The Teachman study suggests the primary benefit of “not having sex before marriage” is the low partner / cohabitation count as opposed to the waiting for marriage part. So if your partner count is just one, whether your wife became your sex partner before or after you married her, has no real effect on the marriage outcome. The benefit is that you married your one and only.

With Jennifer and myself, we did have sex before marriage. Frankly I think that was absolutely vital for us to be bonded to each other to have survived our long distance courtship. To be quite blunt, I think a number of my girlfriend relationships fell apart because I wasn’t having sex with them. I’m pretty damn sure that my first serious girlfriend and I had that as a issue. So sexual activity with Jennifer was I think a key part in making it to the wedding. Yeah we broke the goody-two-shoes rules and it worked out just fine for us.

I also know of a few couples that “did the right thing” and waited during the engagement and one half of the couple simply became impatient with waiting and started having sex with someone else. Yes indeed they cheated and were in the wrong for doing so, but I also think if the other set of rules were broken and they were actually getting laid by their future spouse… it all was much less likely to have turned into a cheating situation. To be blunt, it’s a highly unnatural situation for a young couple to not have sex together for an extended amount of time. There’s a fine line between being “sexually moral” and “modeling sexual dysfunction.”

Bearing in mind that I am an atheist when I say this… a wedding ceremony provides a trivial amount of genuine bonding compared to your biological response to each other during sex. Or as the bible puts it, when you have sex together you become “One Flesh.” So if you want the religious viewpoint, One Flesh trumps anything that happens in the church. Not just by a little bit… by a lot.

What happens in a church wedding, legally bonds you to your spouse in multiple and serious ways. With some degree of irony, what actually happens in a church wedding is simply the frosting covering over a quite worldly contract and you really should have a lawyer present for before you sign. The actual spiritual connection between a couple happens in the Holiday Inn when you told everyone you were going out to see The Avengers again. (See what I did there?)

So maybe I’m just cynical, but I think you should figure out whether or not the One Flesh routine actually works for you both, before you sign the paperwork to change your tax filing status and become co-responsible for each other’s debts.

But don’t misunderstand, I think it’s a very strong benefit that Jennifer and I have only had P-in-V sex with each other. That’s a huge factor in our marriage and a reason why Jennifer is okay with me doing everything I do with MMSL. It’s no secret that I struggle with monogamy on a Body Agenda level, but rationally I know it, and she, has been the making of both me and so much of my overall happiness. That being said, I kinda like that Jennifer was so into me she was willing to break the rules to have me. She kinda likes that I was the sort of guy who made her want to break the rules. Being Alpha is more fun, so you may as well establish you’re a force of nature during the engagement.

Mood music lol…

Men: We’re Not Actually Bad, We’re Just Drawn That Way

So the recent drama is that a man on a Virgin Australia flight was asked to move his seat away from two unaccompanied minors. Angry outburst from the general public ensues and rightly so. It’s completely prejudicial. I mean if you’re going to move men away from children for fear of molestation, you may as well move them away from the women too. We might get all rapey in Aisle 23 or something. Specially after you liquor us up and give us over priced and defective headsets. My suggestion would be all the men sitting at the front of the plane and all the women and children at the back of the plane. I realize that’s a controversial approach, but feel I have to throw it out before feminists beat us to the punch and suggest men should travel in cages in the cargo hold for everyone’s safety.

We men are monsters after all.

Anyway, it’s all been pretty much blogged, tweeted and Facebooked to death, so I’ll leave that as all having been said. But I would like to add one thing…

…having unattended children that aren’t mine around me, is somewhat stressful. It’s not because I’m not good with kids, because I am. It’s not because I don’t like kids, because I do. It’s simply because there is always a risk of misunderstanding or prejudice that something inappropriate happened between you. There is always the risk that your entire life gets picked over by an army of experts who make their living from deciding grey areas aren’t white enough so they must err on the side of caution and declare them black. There’s always a risk you lose everything that really matters.

As a result, I simply never allow myself to be with a child that is not mine, without also the presence of one of my children. I really like my daughters’ friends too, they’re a great bunch of girls and I would protect all of them if need be, but there’s just a line that I won’t cross. No physical contact, no isolation, no confusion, always a witness. I am always at least somewhat “on duty” around them in the back of my mind.

My point of saying all that is this, if I’m on a plane and you plonk unaccompanied minors next to me, I’d very much prefer to be moved. I mean seriously, get those frakking things away from me. I don’t need the lady sitting behind me, thinking she might have thought something could have happened and start yelling out we have a 23-19…

So much of the humor of Monsters Inc was the paradox between the monsters having jobs of scaring the kids, but the reality was that the kids also scared the crap out of the monsters. We watched the movie as a family probably 30-40 times when the girls were small, it’s a great movie and I don’t need to watch it again to remember it well enough to mentally review it from a Game / Men’s Rights perspective.

It’s pretty easy to do. Just remember Jessica Rabbits immortal line, “I’m not bad, I’m just drawn that way” and watch the movie again, thinking of the monsters not as monsters…  but as men just drawn that way.

So anyway, right after that scene in the movie, Boo’s (little girl) door goes through the shredder. With her door gone, there’s no way Sully (big blue monster) can never see her again. He loses her forever as the system decides a shade of grey is in fact black. In the words of the CDA lady. “That’s how it has to be.”

Correction. That’s the way it is, but it’s not the way it has to be.

What Exactly Is A Red Pill Woman?

GMAC asked in passing on Facebook today… “So what is a Red Pill Woman?” in response to someone I didn’t know describing herself as a “Red Pill Woman.” I have to say it’s a great question, I’ve written a lot about Girl Game and Sexy Wives for a long time now, but never actually thought to define what the idealized Red Pill woman is like.

Anyway… let’s have a crack at it.

(1)  Understands that physical appearance and her looks are what attracts men’s sexual interest. She stays in shape and while every waking minute she may not be dressed to the nines, neither does she get mistaken for a slob. She “looks good for [insert age]”

(2)  Understands that all her skills, effort, kindness, intelligence and “inner beauty” et al, is what creates relationship comfort and makes her someone capable of having a functional relationship with.

(3)  Understands that what she does with her vagina always has some sort of consequence.

(4)  Understands that there is a sexual marketplace, and that women have an earlier peak of sexual desirability than men do. That the point (1) stuff comes very easily to young women, and that the point (2) and (3) stuff pays off over the longer term.

(5)  Understands that men are the gatekeepers of commitment and that committed men place extreme value on sexual loyalty.

(6)  Doesn’t need a man to save her from her own folly. Will not tolerate a relationship with a man that requires her to save him from his folly.

(7)  Is aware of her own sexuality and understands what in a man attracts her and turns her on. Namely hypergamy, Alpha Traits, why she may Fitness Test and so on.

(8)  Can delay gratification. Can pass on someone or something that is fun for now, but painful later on.

(9)  Can articulate things that she did wrong in prior relationships. Even if the guy was clearly the greater cause of relationship failure, she can acknowledge things she could have done better, or differently. She can think consciously about her relationships, rather than simply follow her emotions from moment to moment. Has a learning curve.

(10)  Understands that relationships are not static, that effort and intention to maintain them is an ongoing requirement. That while she can reasonably expect the man to take the lead, that doesn’t mean he’s the sled dog and she can curl up and take a nap on the sleigh.

(11)  Expresses genuine relationship discontent, clearly and directly, allowing time to correct the relationship issue. Does not complain to everyone else but her husband, does not act out instead of addressing problems, does not plan and/or execute an exit strategy before stating her discontent.

(12)  Lets go of resentment for relationship issues that are now resolved.

(13)  Understands that divorce sucks and is more akin to getting treatment for cancer than having cosmetic surgery.

(14)  Likes men in a general sense for who they are and what they do, rather than detesting all men in general and making an exception for the tiny few in her nuclear family.

(15)  Understands the risks both men and women take in having serious relationships, and is willing to negotiate ways to verify trustworthiness in each other. Sees doing this as evidence of true commitment rather than an insulting invasion of privacy.

(16)  With her chosen partner, is deeply and passionately sexual.

(17)  Is aware of her own personal kink and can communicate her sexual desires. Takes responsibility for receiving her own sexual pleasure.

(18)  Has a sense of humor.

(19)  Respects the boundaries of other peoples relationships and doesn’t attempt to mate poach.

(20)  Doesn’t keep the Red Pill a secret from those that need it.


As I write that, 90% of it seems to fairly directly apply to men as well as women. And for what it’s worth, these women really do exist. Maybe not in vast numbers, but neither do they ride on unicorns or speak elvish. There’s quite a few on the forum.


Trinity: My name’s Trinity.

Neo: *The* Trinity? Who cracked the IRS d-base?

Trinity: That was a long time ago.

Neo: Jesus…

Trinity: What?

Neo: I just thought… you were a guy.

Trinity: Most guys do


When He Already Has Kids

Asked yesterday in the comments to When Princess Fiona Comes With a Mess of Little Donkeys

J:  Athol/whoever wants to answer: what are your thoughts on women getting involved with men who have children from a previous relationship?

Ke:  What’s the situation where the opposite is true? The guy is divorced and has partial custody of young children from his previous marriage? Should a woman not get involved with him?

Athol:  This is fairly simple. It’s just math. The figure I’ve heard is that is costs something like $200,000 to raise a kid over their lifetime.

Consider how many children the man could reasonably support on his income. Then take away from that number the number of children he already has. Whatever is left, is the number of children he can reasonably have with you.

So say you get involved with a guy that has enough income to reasonably support three children, if you marry him, you end up having three children. But if he has an ex-wife and two children with her, and you’re the second wife, he’ll only have one child with you. Either way, he’ll only end up with three children.

Of course you can fight tooth and nail to get him over-committed to having more children than he can reasonably support, but he isn’t really going to want them and you’re going to have trouble paying the bills. This of course creates a massive charge of erotic sexual tension between you desperate for release… lol just kidding.

Plus you’re likely likely going to watch him hand over cash via child support and/or alimony to a woman who has sexually rejected him. Which is a fairly difficult structural situation for a guy to maintain his attractiveness in. Obviously it’s all mandated by the courts and he has to do it, but the end result is that he’s funneling money outside the marriage constantly. It would probably be cheaper if he just had a bit of a moderate gambling problem or something. Even if he had a $500 a month strip-club bill it would be less annoying than a $1000 a month child support bill. At least that way he’d have attractive women showing him attention as a preselection effect and it would be cheaper.

It’s also worth noting that women going through, or planning a divorce, do occasionally quite purposely seek to damage the ability of the husband to provide for and father more children. The vasectomy demand shortly followed by divorce paperwork isn’t super common, but does happen. I have email from one reader who got the paperwork when he came back from the urologist office, and a second reader who had sex one time only before being given his walking papers. From an evo-psych perspective this makes sense in that as much as possible, the ex-wife wants her ex-husbands resources to continuously flow to her and not risk being diverted to a new woman. Sometimes it’s just revenge.

So anyway… if you don’t want kids yourself, a guy broke from paying for the children he already has won’t bug you much to have more children. Yay no stretchmarks!

And obviously if the kids are all grown and so on, this is all less of an issue. Provided that the little darlings are moved out of the house and have proper lives of their own. You don’t want to end up doing the laundry for his 25-year-old son. Or being a sudden step-grandma / child care service for his returning 22-year-old daughter so she can finish her under water basket weaving degree.



When Princess Fiona Comes With a Mess of Little Donkeys

Reader:  Hi Athol,  I wrote to you before when I was in the final stages of my marriage. You gave me some good advice and it was appreciated.

It’s become clear that my major problem (other than the fact that I married a woman who seems to have BPD) was structural: I was poor, relatively (ESL teacher) and she was looking for more security. Since having gotten a better paying job in IT, my ex has shown interest again showing me that, as bitter a truth as it can be to accept, it was, in a way, my fault. I can’t blame my ex-wife for needing security, especially understanding what I do now about the “Red Pill” reality of a woman’s mind.

So, anyway, that wasn’t my point in writing. I wanted to see if you’d care to discuss something on your blog. It’s been a major breakthrough for me, having been raised as a step-child and having just divorced a woman with children. It seems that women secretly despise men that take care of children that aren’t theirs. On one level, they love and appreciate it but on another, deeper level, they seem to look at the step-father as a kind of volunteer cuckold of sorts. This can even push women who are unaware of themselves to encourage their new husbands to be especially strict or even abusive of their step-children in extreme situations. Maybe Alpha males of the sub-Saharan past would do the same as Lions (kill the young from previous males)? I wonder what your advice would be to men interested in marrying women with children from previous marriages. It seems to be a bad idea to me, from my experience. The woman will always look at those kids and remember her ex-husband and look at her new husband as a chump for taking care of children that aren’t his. Even though the Blue Pill entertainment industry has always portrayed guys that rescue the divorced woman and her child as heroes, it seems like women only think that way in the movies.

Athol:  Okay let me just shout this out at the start of the post…  in the case of infertility, adoption and artificial in insemination et al are completely different issues of “raising someone else’s child”. I’m not talking about that issue here, I’ll get to it soon I think because it’s a huge issue for many couples.


The ugly truth is much as you have guessed it to be. When a woman already has children and has either divorced or never married the father, she has a serious need for help with the time and effort in raising the children. Even if she’s doing fairly well from child support and alimony payments, she’s not going to have the same total household income as before the divorce, so she needs addition of income to raise her children. Thus what she needs is a dependable Beta provider and not someone who is going to rock the boat with Alpha demands for more of her attention and submission. Basically she’s had all the Alpha she can handle and now she needs you to man up about being a wallet and a babysitter.

After marrying into a solo mother’s family, men often find they have been the target of a rather well planned headhunting expedition. They’ve been wined and dined. Fabulous home cooked meals. All the kids on their best behavior. Her friends all swooping in and helping whisk the children away to their house to allow privacy and passion. Her extremely agreeable and eager to please… everything is just so wonderful… you’re actually starting to bond with the kids a little… she’s a good woman, the kids are great… let’s get married…

…wedding bells. Well not really, a simple ceremony with more of her friends than yours in attendance…

…and the honeymoon is over. Now there’s beer and Chinese takeout. The kids make it very clear that you aren’t their father. There seems to be more of her friends dropping off kids at her house than the other way around. Sex drops off fairly quickly (because you aren’t getting along with the children and that just stresses her out)  Also having moved into her house, it’s become apparent that it really is her house… not our house, her house. It’s not so much that she makes the rules, more that no one gives a crap about what you say anyway. Also apparently there’s some outstanding tax bills and it would make sense if everyone got one cell phone plan under your name.

Well that’s the horror story scenario anyway. Probably does not happen to every guy that marries into a ready made family, but certainly happens enough that the horror story is a readily reported pattern.

I think you have it right that there is a level of contempt for men that raise other men’s children. Whether she was your wife and got pregnant to another guy, or she got pregnant to another guy and became your wife, it all amounts to you spending vital resources on a child that isn’t yours. Which is pretty much the dumbest thing possible to do as far as male genes are concerned. Everyone’s Body Agenda thinks you’re a total idiot and frankly worse off than a guy that just masturbates. If all you do is jerk off, you don’t pass your genes off into the next generation, but at least you aren’t paying through the nose for the privilege.

Also watch for the frequent request to legally adopt her children. That’s just her exit strategy to divorce you and still get your money, without having to go through the mental effort of having to endlessly spurn you sexually. Depending on which state you’re in, you may not even have to legally marry her to get caught up in a child support mess because you have been “acting like a father to the children.” The little darlings did bond to you so quickly after all.

As you can probably figure out now, if you had your whole Alpha/Beta/Physical package together from the start, you would never have felt the need to have gotten involved with her so seriously in the first place. If you’re a hotter guy and a better catch, instead of the single girl without kids flaking on you and the solo mom being the best you could get, the single girl turns into your fiance and the solo mom acts is her bridesmaid and drinks a little too much at the reception. Sex Rank is a true marketplace and cares not for Hollywood endings.

So personally, I would think extremely seriously about getting involved with anyone marrying for the second time, especially if they have children, oh and if you’re just a wallet, they always try and get pregnant asap to trap you in further. The exception to this being if we’re talking about two middle aged people with grown children, that’s a bit of a different situation. In that case the woman is looking for a more Alpha partner to have fun with and a proper relationship. You’re not going to get caught up in child support hell if see has a 25-year-old son and a 23-year-old daughter. But they sure as hell shouldn’t be living at home still. Kids gotta be self-supporting, or no dice on the getting involved front. Or put another way… Princess Fiona shouldn’t come with a collection of Donkeys.